Newbie question: burn-in effect on a widescreen tv

[M]

Apologies if this topic has already been discussed to death.
Now that I own a progressive scan DVD player, it seems time
to upgrade to a widescreen digital tv set. The three technology options
seem to be:

1) rear-projection cathode ray tube (CRT)
2) LCD
3) Plasma

Unfortunately, Plasma and even LCD appear to be beyond my
budget. Which leaves me in the market for a CRT. But I understand that
burn-in can be a problem. Specifically, I
plan to get a widescreen tv (16:9), so that when I am watching
normal tv programs that aren't in the widescreen format there will be black
bars on the left & right side... correct? My understanding is that these
black bars can cause burn-in! This was never a factor for my old 4:3 tv
set, because the black bars were never there, except for the small fraction
of time I watched a widescreen movie. But everything flips when I switch
to the widescreen tv. So, even if I watch widescreen movies say 20% of the
time, that still means that 80% of the time the black bars will be present
on my widescreen tv. Is burn-in likely to occur? Has this ever happened
to any owners here of a widescreen CRT tv?

Thanks.

[Italo]

"M" > wrote in message
...
>
> Apologies if this topic has already been discussed to death.
> Now that I own a progressive scan DVD player, it seems time
> to upgrade to a widescreen digital tv set. The three technology options
> seem to be:
>
> 1) rear-projection cathode ray tube (CRT)

It's a rear projection TV or it's a CRT not both. In the case of either
burn-in is a non-issue compared to Plasma sets.

--
Italo

[Rob Vonderhaar]

Yes, burn-in is a very real concern with CRT-based RPTVs as well as with
plasmas and it's happened to real buyers. You are correct that watching 4:3
sources in the original 4:3 ratio will cause the TV to display black (or
sometimes gray) bars to fill both sides. To get around the problem, just
about every 16:9 set offers one or more "stretch" modes that will expand a
4:3 image to fill a 16:9 space. (Be careful here, as many sets won't allow
you to activate 'stretch' if the incoming signal is in 720p or 1080i HD.
For example, although my TV has several proportional stretch modes, I can't
use any of them with my Dish 6000 HD receiver so have to rely on the single
non-proportional stretch mode built into the Dish receiver.)

Many people say that they quickly get used to watching the distorted images
(ie, people look short and fat), but I'm not among them. It just seems nuts
to me to spend a lot of money on a high-end TV and only to be forced to
watch weirdly-stretched pictures a great percentage of the time. Other
people report that burn-in can be eliminated (or at least reduced) by
setting brightness and contrast to lower settings and watching in a
nearly-dark room, but I don't know as I'd take this as gospel.

I personally ended up with a DLP set (a fourth technology you didn't list),
largely because I can watch standard 4:3 all day long with no burn-in
worries. I also enjoy a very bright and very sharp picture with zero
convergence or geometry errors, even in my family room which is usually not
darkened enough to allow a CRT-based set look at its best.

I don't know what you're planning to spend, but DLP sets can be had in 43"
to 50" sizes for less than $3000 if you shop around and bargain hard. I can
tell you that I've never regretted my decision, and if I had to do it again,
I would definitely spend more for the DLP vs any CRT-based RP set.

Rob

"M" > wrote in message
...
>
> Apologies if this topic has already been discussed to death.
> Now that I own a progressive scan DVD player, it seems time
> to upgrade to a widescreen digital tv set. The three technology options
> seem to be:
>
> 1) rear-projection cathode ray tube (CRT)
> 2) LCD
> 3) Plasma
>
> Unfortunately, Plasma and even LCD appear to be beyond my
> budget. Which leaves me in the market for a CRT. But I understand that
> burn-in can be a problem. Specifically, I
> plan to get a widescreen tv (16:9), so that when I am watching
> normal tv programs that aren't in the widescreen format there will be
black
> bars on the left & right side... correct? My understanding is that these
> black bars can cause burn-in! This was never a factor for my old 4:3 tv
> set, because the black bars were never there, except for the small
fraction
> of time I watched a widescreen movie. But everything flips when I switch
> to the widescreen tv. So, even if I watch widescreen movies say 20% of
the
> time, that still means that 80% of the time the black bars will be present
> on my widescreen tv. Is burn-in likely to occur? Has this ever happened
> to any owners here of a widescreen CRT tv?
>
> Thanks.

[Markeau]

"Italo" > wrote in message
u
> "M" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> Apologies if this topic has already been discussed to death.
>> Now that I own a progressive scan DVD player, it seems time
>> to upgrade to a widescreen digital tv set. The three technology
>> options seem to be:
>>
>> 1) rear-projection cathode ray tube (CRT)
>
> It's a rear projection TV or it's a CRT not both. In the case of
> either burn-in is a non-issue compared to Plasma sets.

Most RPTV's have 3 CRT's and burn-in certainly *can* be a very large
issue, especially since the 3 CRT's are typically driven with very
high brightness/contrast.

To the original poster: just use a zoom or stretch mode when viewing
3:4 material - been doing that for 4yrs on a Toshiba 56" HD widescreen
and no probs at all.

[d a v e]

i'm curious, if you only plan to watch widescreen material < 20% of the
time, why are you looking into widescreen tv's?


"M" > wrote in message
...
>
> Apologies if this topic has already been discussed to death.
> Now that I own a progressive scan DVD player, it seems time
> to upgrade to a widescreen digital tv set. The three technology options
> seem to be:
>
> 1) rear-projection cathode ray tube (CRT)
> 2) LCD
> 3) Plasma
>
> Unfortunately, Plasma and even LCD appear to be beyond my
> budget. Which leaves me in the market for a CRT. But I understand that
> burn-in can be a problem. Specifically, I
> plan to get a widescreen tv (16:9), so that when I am watching
> normal tv programs that aren't in the widescreen format there will be
black
> bars on the left & right side... correct? My understanding is that these
> black bars can cause burn-in! This was never a factor for my old 4:3 tv
> set, because the black bars were never there, except for the small
fraction
> of time I watched a widescreen movie. But everything flips when I switch
> to the widescreen tv. So, even if I watch widescreen movies say 20% of
the
> time, that still means that 80% of the time the black bars will be present
> on my widescreen tv. Is burn-in likely to occur? Has this ever happened
> to any owners here of a widescreen CRT tv?
>
> Thanks.

[M]

Because when I pop a movie into my dvd player, I prefer to
view the movie in widescreen format. But tv shows are
still broadcast in 4:3 format. Do you think that people who
own widescreen tv's watch movies 100% of the time and never
tune in to CNN or 'Friends' or any regular tv at all? My concern is that
the time spent watching regular tv might cause burn-in on a widescreen tv,
so I wanted to see how other people who own widescreen sets have dealt with
this potential problem.


"d a v e" > wrote:
>i'm curious, if you only plan to watch widescreen material < 20% of the
>time, why are you looking into widescreen tv's?
>
>
>"M" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> Apologies if this topic has already been discussed to death.
>> Now that I own a progressive scan DVD player, it seems time
>> to upgrade to a widescreen digital tv set. The three technology options
>> seem to be:
>>
>> 1) rear-projection cathode ray tube (CRT)
>> 2) LCD
>> 3) Plasma
>>
>> Unfortunately, Plasma and even LCD appear to be beyond my
>> budget. Which leaves me in the market for a CRT. But I understand that
>> burn-in can be a problem. Specifically, I
>> plan to get a widescreen tv (16:9), so that when I am watching
>> normal tv programs that aren't in the widescreen format there will be
>black
>> bars on the left & right side... correct? My understanding is that these
>> black bars can cause burn-in! This was never a factor for my old 4:3
tv
>> set, because the black bars were never there, except for the small
>fraction
>> of time I watched a widescreen movie. But everything flips when I switch
>> to the widescreen tv. So, even if I watch widescreen movies say 20% of
>the
>> time, that still means that 80% of the time the black bars will be present
>> on my widescreen tv. Is burn-in likely to occur? Has this ever happened
>> to any owners here of a widescreen CRT tv?
>>
>> Thanks.
>
>

[M]

"Markeau" > wrote:
>"Italo" > wrote in message
u
>> "M" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> Apologies if this topic has already been discussed to death.
>>> Now that I own a progressive scan DVD player, it seems time
>>> to upgrade to a widescreen digital tv set. The three technology
>>> options seem to be:
>>>
>>> 1) rear-projection cathode ray tube (CRT)
>>
>> It's a rear projection TV or it's a CRT not both. In the case of
>> either burn-in is a non-issue compared to Plasma sets.
>
>Most RPTV's have 3 CRT's and burn-in certainly *can* be a very large
>issue, especially since the 3 CRT's are typically driven with very
>high brightness/contrast.
>
>To the original poster: just use a zoom or stretch mode when viewing
>3:4 material - been doing that for 4yrs on a Toshiba 56" HD widescreen
>and no probs at all.
>

Thanks, but this brings up another question: does the stretch mode distort
the images to the point where it is noticeable or bothersome?

[Rob Vonderhaar]

The distortion is absolutely noticeable; whether it is 'bothersome' is
something only you can answer. I'd suggest you go to a store and spend some
time watching stretched 4:3 images. Some people say they get used to it;
others (me included) never been able to. I definitely prefer watching a
smaller 4:3 picture with sidebars. In addition to the distortion, I also
find that stretching further accentuates signal problems and the poor
resolution of NTSC images.
Rob

"M" > wrote in message
...
> Thanks, but this brings up another question: does the stretch mode
distort
> the images to the point where it is noticeable or bothersome?

[Tiny Tim]

Rob Vonderhaar wrote:
> The distortion is absolutely noticeable; whether it is 'bothersome' is
> something only you can answer. I'd suggest you go to a store and
> spend some time watching stretched 4:3 images. Some people say they
> get used to it; others (me included) never been able to. I
> definitely prefer watching a smaller 4:3 picture with sidebars. In
> addition to the distortion, I also find that stretching further
> accentuates signal problems and the poor resolution of NTSC images.
> Rob
>
> "M" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Thanks, but this brings up another question: does the stretch mode
>> distort the images to the point where it is noticeable or bothersome?

I have a JVC 32" widescreen, which I've had for nearly four years. It has a
"Panoramic" mode that stretches a 4:3 picture to fill the screen. It keeps
the centre of the picture unmolested and only stretches the sides of the
picture. A little is lost top and bottom, but not much.

It also has "Full" mode, which stretches the picture sideways only, which is
correct for a 16:9 broadcast but can be used to fill the screen when playing
video games, without losing scores or other preipheral information at the
top and bottom. For broadcast TV this stretch is unacceptable. For video
games it's really not too bad.

In all the time I've had the TV I've tried the purist approach to 4:3 images
a few times, watching them in their natural perspective and the black edges
don't bother me particularly. However, after a few days/weeks I always
revert to Panoramic mode as it is so much better to enjoy the whole screen
filled with picture at the expense of minor distortion. The JVC does this
very well. I have seen a Phillips set that seems incapable of producing a
stretched picture that looks good. YMMV.

[M]

"Tiny Tim" > wrote:
>Rob Vonderhaar wrote:
>> The distortion is absolutely noticeable; whether it is 'bothersome' is
>> something only you can answer. I'd suggest you go to a store and
>> spend some time watching stretched 4:3 images. Some people say they
>> get used to it; others (me included) never been able to. I
>> definitely prefer watching a smaller 4:3 picture with sidebars. In
>> addition to the distortion, I also find that stretching further
>> accentuates signal problems and the poor resolution of NTSC images.
>> Rob
>>
>> "M" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Thanks, but this brings up another question: does the stretch mode
>>> distort the images to the point where it is noticeable or bothersome?
>
>I have a JVC 32" widescreen, which I've had for nearly four years. It has
a
>"Panoramic" mode that stretches a 4:3 picture to fill the screen. It keeps
>the centre of the picture unmolested and only stretches the sides of the
>picture. A little is lost top and bottom, but not much.
>
>It also has "Full" mode, which stretches the picture sideways only, which
is
>correct for a 16:9 broadcast but can be used to fill the screen when playing
>video games, without losing scores or other preipheral information at the
>top and bottom. For broadcast TV this stretch is unacceptable. For video
>games it's really not too bad.
>
>In all the time I've had the TV I've tried the purist approach to 4:3 images
>a few times, watching them in their natural perspective and the black edges
>don't bother me particularly. However, after a few days/weeks I always
>revert to Panoramic mode as it is so much better to enjoy the whole screen
>filled with picture at the expense of minor distortion. The JVC does this
>very well. I have seen a Phillips set that seems incapable of producing
a
>stretched picture that looks good. YMMV.
>
>

My concern with the black sidebars around a 4:3 picture isn't that they bother
me, but rather my concern is that they could cause burn-in on a conventional
(i.e., non DLP or non LCD) screen. I'm essentially trying to find out if
the burn-in worry is overhyped or if it frequently happens.

[Italo]

"M" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> My concern with the black sidebars around a 4:3 picture isn't that they
bother
> me, but rather my concern is that they could cause burn-in on a
conventional
> (i.e., non DLP or non LCD) screen. I'm essentially trying to find out if
> the burn-in worry is overhyped or if it frequently happens.
>

If you're planning on getting a Plasma and most of your viewing is normal TV
(4:3) and if you're planning to watch it at all times in that mode that is
an issue to worry about. If you're not getting a Plasma and most of your
normal (4:3) TV viewing is done in full screen mode there is nothing much to
worry about.

I've got a widescreen CRT TV and watch 95% of standard TV in full screen
mode (this is not the same as 'Panoramic mode where the image is distorted
at the sides) it is in fact at the correct ratio with no distortion but just
trimmed top and bottom. Unless you're watching a subtitled film or Fox news
with their scrolling news bar at the bottom this is perfectly acceptable and
makes full use of the screen. Any good quality CRT TV/LCD/Plasma will have
this mode and allow you to watch 4:3 material with hardly any loss of
resolution and no distortion of the video signal.

--
Italo

[Markeau]

"M" > wrote in message

> Thanks, but this brings up another question: does the stretch mode
> distort the images to the point where it is noticeable or
bothersome?

For news, talk shows, many non-critical programs and channel surfing
stretch is fine, then for more interesting programs just switch over
to zoom (cuts tiny bit of top/bottom off) ... there are quite a few
programs that are already letterboxed so zoom makes the pic fit almost
perfectly (it varies) ... Indeed the 10-20% of time spent watching
true widescreen programs in HD or prog dvd way offsets any
inconvenience or slight distortion in the other 80-90% of viewing ...
In fact even though we only sit about 8-9ft away from a 56" 16:9 HD
Toshiba I wish I woulda gotten a ~65" 16:9 HD RPTV.

[hasta]

>
>Because when I pop a movie into my dvd player, I prefer to
>view the movie in widescreen format. But tv shows are
>still broadcast in 4:3 format. Do you think that people who
>own widescreen tv's watch movies 100% of the time and never
>tune in to CNN or 'Friends' or any regular tv at all? My concern is that
>the time spent watching regular tv might cause burn-in on a widescreen tv,
>so I wanted to see how other people who own widescreen sets have dealt with
>this potential problem.

I consider my 4:3 viewing to be 'non-critical' and so simply have a
smaller 4:3 set in the same room for that (and playing video games). A
27" TV is so cheap to purchase these days it's a non-isuue. Problem
solved. If space was important, I would get a regular 19" or 21" LCD
computer monitor with TV tuner (or use a converter if it has regular
vid/aud inputs).

[linlin]

"OJ" > wrote in message

-------------snip------------------
> I've always wondered why the "black side-bars" don't cycle from black
> to light-grey and back veerry slowly. Would that help? Do any tvs do
> this?


How about the station logos which are displayed (usually) in the bottom
right corner of the TV screen? Will these logos embed into the screens
without hope of ever removing them? And what about liability? Shouldn't the
TV stations be liable for ruining our expensive TV screens by burning their
stupid logos on our property? Class action anyone?

[normanstrong]

"M" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Markeau" > wrote:
> >"Italo" > wrote in message
> u
> >> "M" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >>>
> >>> Apologies if this topic has already been discussed to death.
> >>> Now that I own a progressive scan DVD player, it seems time
> >>> to upgrade to a widescreen digital tv set. The three technology
> >>> options seem to be:
> >>>
> >>> 1) rear-projection cathode ray tube (CRT)
> >>
> >> It's a rear projection TV or it's a CRT not both. In the case of
> >> either burn-in is a non-issue compared to Plasma sets.
> >
> >Most RPTV's have 3 CRT's and burn-in certainly *can* be a very
large
> >issue, especially since the 3 CRT's are typically driven with very
> >high brightness/contrast.
> >
> >To the original poster: just use a zoom or stretch mode when
viewing
> >3:4 material - been doing that for 4yrs on a Toshiba 56" HD
widescreen
> >and no probs at all.
> >
>
> Thanks, but this brings up another question: does the stretch mode
distort
> the images to the point where it is noticeable or bothersome?

It certainly does to me. In fact, I'd much sooner watch the movie
panned and scanned than stretched so everything fits on the screen.

Norm Strong

[M]

Thanks to all who responded. I appreciate the viewpoints.
And the site you referenced is pretty cool, thanks!

I'm thinking now that I'm probably gonna spend the extra $
and get a widescreen DLP set, so that burn-in is simply
not an issue and I won't ever have to use stretch or zoom mode
for 4:3 shows.

"d a v e" > wrote:
>i understand, it just seems most people cater to their most watched format,
>which in your case is 4:3.
>since your main concern seems to be burn-in, a 16:9 crt rptv may not be
the
>best option for you, unless like others have stated, you can handle the
>stretch modes.
>personally i think all the stretch modes look horrible.
>although you didn't mention a price range or screen size your looking for,
>this might help you decide what aspect ratio and screen size will be best
>for you:
>http://www.cavecreations.com/tv2.cgi
>
>
>"M" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> Because when I pop a movie into my dvd player, I prefer to
>> view the movie in widescreen format. But tv shows are
>> still broadcast in 4:3 format. Do you think that people who
>> own widescreen tv's watch movies 100% of the time and never
>> tune in to CNN or 'Friends' or any regular tv at all? My concern is that
>> the time spent watching regular tv might cause burn-in on a widescreen
tv,
>> so I wanted to see how other people who own widescreen sets have dealt
>with
>> this potential problem.
>>
>>
>> "d a v e" > wrote:
>> >i'm curious, if you only plan to watch widescreen material < 20% of the
>> >time, why are you looking into widescreen tv's?
>> >
>> >
>> >"M" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >>
>> >> Apologies if this topic has already been discussed to death.
>> >> Now that I own a progressive scan DVD player, it seems time
>> >> to upgrade to a widescreen digital tv set. The three technology
>options
>> >> seem to be:
>> >>
>> >> 1) rear-projection cathode ray tube (CRT)
>> >> 2) LCD
>> >> 3) Plasma
>> >>
>> >> Unfortunately, Plasma and even LCD appear to be beyond my
>> >> budget. Which leaves me in the market for a CRT. But I understand
>that
>> >> burn-in can be a problem. Specifically, I
>> >> plan to get a widescreen tv (16:9), so that when I am watching
>> >> normal tv programs that aren't in the widescreen format there will
be
>> >black
>> >> bars on the left & right side... correct? My understanding is that
>these
>> >> black bars can cause burn-in! This was never a factor for my old 4:3
>> tv
>> >> set, because the black bars were never there, except for the small
>> >fraction
>> >> of time I watched a widescreen movie. But everything flips when I
>switch
>> >> to the widescreen tv. So, even if I watch widescreen movies say 20%
of
>> >the
>> >> time, that still means that 80% of the time the black bars will be
>present
>> >> on my widescreen tv. Is burn-in likely to occur? Has this ever
>happened
>> >> to any owners here of a widescreen CRT tv?
>> >>
>> >> Thanks.
>> >
>> >
>>
>
>

[d a v e]

if your now considering dlp, also rember that philips will be releasing a
lcos set later this year which seems to be priced and marketed to compete
with the samsung dlp's...

"M" > wrote in message
...
>
> Thanks to all who responded. I appreciate the viewpoints.
> And the site you referenced is pretty cool, thanks!
>
> I'm thinking now that I'm probably gonna spend the extra $
> and get a widescreen DLP set, so that burn-in is simply
> not an issue and I won't ever have to use stretch or zoom mode
> for 4:3 shows.
>
> "d a v e" > wrote:
> >i understand, it just seems most people cater to their most watched
format,
> >which in your case is 4:3.
> >since your main concern seems to be burn-in, a 16:9 crt rptv may not be
> the
> >best option for you, unless like others have stated, you can handle the
> >stretch modes.
> >personally i think all the stretch modes look horrible.
> >although you didn't mention a price range or screen size your looking
for,
> >this might help you decide what aspect ratio and screen size will be best
> >for you:
> >http://www.cavecreations.com/tv2.cgi
> >
> >
> >"M" > wrote in message
> ...
> >>
> >> Because when I pop a movie into my dvd player, I prefer to
> >> view the movie in widescreen format. But tv shows are
> >> still broadcast in 4:3 format. Do you think that people who
> >> own widescreen tv's watch movies 100% of the time and never
> >> tune in to CNN or 'Friends' or any regular tv at all? My concern is
that
> >> the time spent watching regular tv might cause burn-in on a widescreen
> tv,
> >> so I wanted to see how other people who own widescreen sets have dealt
> >with
> >> this potential problem.
> >>
> >>
> >> "d a v e" > wrote:
> >> >i'm curious, if you only plan to watch widescreen material < 20% of
the
> >> >time, why are you looking into widescreen tv's?
> >> >
> >> >
> >> >"M" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >> >>
> >> >> Apologies if this topic has already been discussed to death.
> >> >> Now that I own a progressive scan DVD player, it seems time
> >> >> to upgrade to a widescreen digital tv set. The three technology
> >options
> >> >> seem to be:
> >> >>
> >> >> 1) rear-projection cathode ray tube (CRT)
> >> >> 2) LCD
> >> >> 3) Plasma
> >> >>
> >> >> Unfortunately, Plasma and even LCD appear to be beyond my
> >> >> budget. Which leaves me in the market for a CRT. But I understand
> >that
> >> >> burn-in can be a problem. Specifically, I
> >> >> plan to get a widescreen tv (16:9), so that when I am watching
> >> >> normal tv programs that aren't in the widescreen format there will
> be
> >> >black
> >> >> bars on the left & right side... correct? My understanding is that
> >these
> >> >> black bars can cause burn-in! This was never a factor for my old
4:3
> >> tv
> >> >> set, because the black bars were never there, except for the small
> >> >fraction
> >> >> of time I watched a widescreen movie. But everything flips when I
> >switch
> >> >> to the widescreen tv. So, even if I watch widescreen movies say 20%
> of
> >> >the
> >> >> time, that still means that 80% of the time the black bars will be
> >present
> >> >> on my widescreen tv. Is burn-in likely to occur? Has this ever
> >happened
> >> >> to any owners here of a widescreen CRT tv?
> >> >>
> >> >> Thanks.
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >
> >
>