Why don't they sell TiVos with HDs bigger than 80 Gb?

[David Z]

Why don't they sell TiVos with 120 GB drives? Or even two 120 GB
Drives? Given all the folks who have gone through the hassle of
upgrading their units with larger HDs, don't the folks at TiVo know that
there's a demand for it?

And why is there a $100 price difference between the 40 GB unit and the
80 GB unit? The last time I looked, the price difference between a 40
GB HD and an 80 GB HD is less than half that amount.

- David

If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as
a nail. - A. Maslow



To email me, omit the 789 from the above address

[Stephane Beaudry]

Besides the simple time diversion of doing your own upgrade, I don't think
that more then 1% of Tivo subscribers have ever cracked open their Tivos.
80 hours is quite enough for me, I have two of them, so that's 160 hours, I
will never fill that up. The only reason for me to do an upgrade is to
prove that I can.

"David Z" > wrote in message
...
> Why don't they sell TiVos with 120 GB drives? Or even two 120 GB
> Drives? Given all the folks who have gone through the hassle of
> upgrading their units with larger HDs, don't the folks at TiVo know that
> there's a demand for it?
>
> And why is there a $100 price difference between the 40 GB unit and the
> 80 GB unit? The last time I looked, the price difference between a 40
> GB HD and an 80 GB HD is less than half that amount.
>
> - David
>
> If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as
> a nail. - A. Maslow
>
>
>
> To email me, omit the 789 from the above address
>
>

[Nelson Emerson]

Jeff Frane > wrote in
:

> My question is: who the hell needs 24 hours of tv recorded? There just
> isn't that much worth watching, and much of the good stuff shows up on
> DVD anyway.
>
> Different strokes, of course, but to me the advantage of the TiVo
> (besides it being the perfect tool for watching baseball live!) is
> that I can record programs that come on after I go to bed, or record
> alternate broadcasts that don't conflict with something I want to
> watch, or to be sure I don't miss the final episode of Buffy. I watch
> 'em and delete 'em.
>
> I mean, seriously, tv in general sucks. TiVo allows me to be selective
> about what I watch, without wasting my life in front of the tube.
>
> --Jeff Frane
>
I have a 120 Gig in a DirecTivo which gives me a reported 109 hours. I
have had this for about 6 months and I am starting to wish it were bigger,
although it's not really a problem yet.

I saw someone mention the show "Good Eats" on the Food network on this
newsgroup and checked it out. Turns out I loved it, and Alton Brown
demonstrates cooking techniques, so it is something I want to keep for a
reference. I set a season pass for it, and currently am up to about 20
episodes, and my goal is to get them all. I also like to keep good movies
for a while in case friends come over. It all adds up. I should start
archiving, but so far it isn't a pressing need.

Not to run it into the ground, but is much more than a fancy VCR; like
their slogan says, it has "changed the way I watch TV." Sorry for sounding
like a commercial, but it is really the way I feel.

[Stephane Beaudry]

> From what I've read, virtually nobody records anything of visual quality
> at the slowest speed. (I have a DirectTivo, so I can't speak from
> experience.) At the best quality, the limit is 24 hours which would be
> far too little for me.

I don't know what the official stats are, but I don't notice enough of a
difference between Best and Basic, so I record in Basic. I am probably
blind or something, but it just doesn't jump out at me, maybe when I get a
50" screen I will think differently, but for now on a 27" and 20", the image
is just fine at Basic, sometimes I see a little pixalation when the screen
changes a lot fast, but that doesn't happen much with the stuff I watch.

[Chris Lemon]

"Nelson Emerson" > wrote in
message . 3.44
> I saw someone mention the show "Good Eats" on the Food network on this
> newsgroup and checked it out. Turns out I loved it

Yay! A new convert! Best show on television, bottom line, I tell you. :)

Check out his book, too, particularly if you enjoy the episodes where he
cooks meat. It's just like the show, but on paper and bound for convenient
storage. :)

--
Chris Lemon

http://fredsmythe.com
EFNet: FredSmyth

[Hank Gillette]

In article >,
Jeff Frane > wrote:

> My question is: who the hell needs 24 hours of tv recorded? There just
> isn't that much worth watching, and much of the good stuff shows up on
> DVD anyway.
>

I do, and apparently so do a lot of people who do the upgrades. Some
people watch TV in spurts, or travel, or have more than one person in
their household with differing TV tastes. All valid reasons for needing
large amounts of storage.

--
Hank Gillette

[Tom Almy]

David Z wrote:

> And why is there a $100 price difference between the 40 GB unit and the
> 80 GB unit? The last time I looked, the price difference between a 40
> GB HD and an 80 GB HD is less than half that amount.

Nobody addressed this question. The answer is that prices are based on
perceived value and not cost. So an 80GB unit will command far more
money than a 40GB unit. In the limit, some people will consider it to be
worth twice as much!

[Rod Smith]

In article >,
Jeff Frane > writes:
>
> My question is: who the hell needs 24 hours of tv recorded? There just
> isn't that much worth watching, and much of the good stuff shows up on
> DVD anyway.

In the context of TV, "24 hours of TV" may not be a helpful statistic, at
least not by itself. For instance, suppose you watch an average of two
hours of TV a day. Suppose further that you go on a 2-week vaction. That's
14 days x 2 hours = 28 hours required to store all those shows. If you
want to watch them all when you get back, you'll need to watch more than 2
hours a day to get everything you've watched plus what's being shown after
you get back, and depending on your patterns at that point, you might need
a bit more for a few days until you've cleared enough space.

Personally, I've got a 120GB DirecTiVo (109 hours nominal capacity), and
that's fine for my purposes. I like having lots of shows on the thing so
that I can sit down, find something I'm in the mood to watch, and watch
it, then and there. So long as there's ANY worthwhile TV on over any
reasonable period of time, it can be built up into a list of stuff that's
worth watching. The bigger the hard drive, the more selection you'll have
once you've started doing this.

--
Rod Smith,
http://www.rodsbooks.com
Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking

[Jack Ak]

"Hank Gillette" > wrote in message ...
> In article >,
> "David Z" > wrote:
>
> > And why is there a $100 price difference between the 40 GB unit and the
> > 80 GB unit? The last time I looked, the price difference between a 40
> > GB HD and an 80 GB HD is less than half that amount.
>
> It's a profit-making enterprise. I've got to believe that the hard disk
> gives TiVo their biggest profit margin.
>
> --

It might if TiVo designed fixed disks and outsourced disk manufacturing.

IIRC, TiVo designed the system architecture and outsources the box
manufacturing. The disks come from disk manufacturers who benefit
from OEM pricing. The $13 monthly fee for TiVo service has to be
the high margin item.

[David Z]

"David Z" > wrote in message
...
>
> The questions are (1) why not sell a 120 GB HD TiVo?
> and (2) why make the customer pay an unreasonable
> premium for an 80 GB unit?

Lots of responses, yet no satisfying answers to the above questions.

- David

If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as
a nail. - A. Maslow



To email me, omit the 789 from the above address

[Nelson Emerson]

"Chris Lemon" > wrote in
news:GwHLa.52163$Bg.31562@rwcrnsc54:

> "Nelson Emerson" > wrote in
> message . 3.44
>> I saw someone mention the show "Good Eats" on the Food network on
>> this newsgroup and checked it out. Turns out I loved it
>
> Yay! A new convert! Best show on television, bottom line, I tell you.
> :)
>
> Check out his book, too, particularly if you enjoy the episodes where
> he cooks meat. It's just like the show, but on paper and bound for
> convenient storage. :)
>
Way ahead of ya, dude. Got his book about a month ago. Right now, I'm in
th middle of watching "Mission: Poachable", which Tivo grabbed a few hours
ago. This one is a little sillier than most. Still love it, though. ;^)

[John W]

"David Z" > wrote in message
...
> "David Z" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > The questions are (1) why not sell a 120 GB HD TiVo?
> > and (2) why make the customer pay an unreasonable
> > premium for an 80 GB unit?
>
> Lots of responses, yet no satisfying answers to the above questions.
>

Its not unusual for companies to create a virtually no profit model in a
range as a "teaser" so that people think they can get what they want for a
low price - by the time they've actually handed over the credit card they've
decided on the model with all the extras for twice the price. Go and talk to
a new car dealer about it!

[Wes Newell]

> "David Z" > wrote in message
> ...
>> "David Z" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> >
>> > The questions are (1) why not sell a 120 GB HD TiVo?
>> > and (2) why make the customer pay an unreasonable
>> > premium for an 80 GB unit?
>>
>> Lots of responses, yet no satisfying answers to the above questions.
>>
(1) Probably because that was the largest drive they could put in and
still meet their marketing price when the models were being designed. And
usually you have to commit to so many units to get the price lower.

(2) Because they are in business to make money. you'll probably see a 140
hour unit in the not too distant future for the same price as the 40 hour
unit today.

--
Abit KT7-Raid (KT133) Tbred B core CPU @2400MHz (24x100FSB)
http://mysite.verizon.net/res0exft/cpu.html

[Dr. Personality]

In article <GwHLa.52163$Bg.31562@rwcrnsc54>, Chris Lemon
> wrote:

> "Nelson Emerson" > wrote in
> message . 3.44
> > I saw someone mention the show "Good Eats" on the Food network on this
> > newsgroup and checked it out. Turns out I loved it
>
> Yay! A new convert! Best show on television, bottom line, I tell you. :)
>
> Check out his book, too, particularly if you enjoy the episodes where he
> cooks meat. It's just like the show, but on paper and bound for convenient
> storage. :)


Me too! Alton Brown is a genius. I cook a lot and enjoy it, and Alton
Brown has forever changed the way I do things. For instance, we brined
our Thanksgiving turkey last year because he suggested it, and it was
by far the best turkey we've ever had.

As for the question the OP posed: I have a lot of storage, two 120 GB
drives in each of two DirecTiVos, and I accumulate movies. I have
about sixty or seventy of them standing by. (I watched both American
Pies this week. I'm fifty years old and I thought they were
hysterical.) I collect a couple of series, too, and watch them in
great big chunks. It's all about convenience, I think, and because of
that I'd rather have the storage than not. Besides, it's *cheap*,
maybe just over a couple of hundred dollars for all that storage if you
do your shopping.

One of the things I like best about TiVo is that they made it possible
for the user to upgrade the machine fairly easily and at relatively
little cost. Friendly.

[Dave-tx]

On Mon, 30 Jun 2003 06:27:24 -0400, David Z > wrote:
> "Howard Wilson II" .> wrote in message
> ...
>
>> >> The questions are (1) why not sell a 120 GB HD TiVo?
>> >> and (2) why make the customer pay an unreasonable
>> >> premium for an 80 GB unit?
>> >
>> > Lots of responses, yet no satisfying answers to the above questions.
>>
>> And exactly what kind of answer do you think you're looking for?
>
> A honest one as opposed to one that attributes infinite wisdom to TiVo
> management.
>
>> (1) They don't see the demand as great enough
>
> Perhaps they have a blind spot?

Or, perhaps they're right? I don't know what the demand is
for a 120GB unit, but I'd bet it's pretty low.

>> ... and (2) because people apparently are paying it.
>
> And how many more would they sell if the only charged $50 for the extra
> 40 GB which would still yeild a healthy profit? Do you have the
> data/analysis?

Let's turn this question around. Do YOU have the data/analysis
to back up your claims that they should be selling this cheaper?
(hint: just because they might sell more at a lower cost doesn't
mean they'd make a higher profit)

>> That's pretty much also a rather workable definition of capitalism
> right there.
>
> There's that blind faith thing again. So, capitalists are infallible?
> Is that your answer?

I don't think anyone's claiming that. I do, however, think it's safe
to assume that the TiVo marketing guys, whose jobs are to define
their product lines, have a bit more insight into what the market
demands than some guy posting on usenet.

If you want to call that blind faith, that's your choice.

[David Z]

"Dave-tx" > wrote in message
rg...

> > So, capitalists are infallible?
> > Is that your answer?
>
> I don't think anyone's claiming that.

I do. Go back and reread the thread.

> I do, however, think it's safe
> to assume that the TiVo marketing guys,
> whose jobs are to define their product lines,
> have a bit more insight into what the market
> demands than some guy posting on usenet.

There's that blind faith thing again.

You're implying that I've expressed an opinion on the topic. I only
asked the questions and commented on the answers. Again, I think you
need to go back and reread the thread.

> If you want to call that blind faith...

Yes, I do.

> ...that's your choice.

Yes, it is.

- David

If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as
a nail. - A. Maslow



To email me, omit the 789 from the above address

[Jack Ak]

"Howard Wilson II" .> wrote in message ...
> "David Z" > wrote in news:bdp36e$vavr7$1@ID-
> 79736.news.dfncis.de:
>
> > A honest one as opposed to one that attributes infinite wisdom to TiVo
> > management.
>
> My answer was honest, and attributes nothing to TiVo management. For the
> record, I think they're morons for not giving the single largest requested
> feature and for abandoning the Series1 in regards to software upgrades.
>
What feature would that be?

[tooloud]

David Z wrote:
> "David Z" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> The questions are (1) why not sell a 120 GB HD TiVo?
>> and (2) why make the customer pay an unreasonable
>> premium for an 80 GB unit?
>
> Lots of responses, yet no satisfying answers to the above questions.

Eh, they're just not satisfying to *you*. The premium for the 80 GB Tivo
unit is no more unreasonable than paying $1000 for the bigger engine in a
car that only really costs the auto manufacturer $400 to provide. It's the
same reason that the TV I paid an extra $500 for doesn't actually cost
Mitsubishi an extra $500 to produce. It's business--that's how it works.

IOW, they charge that amount for the 80 GB box because that's what they
decided the market will bear. Many items' prices are based much less on what
it costs to make as they're based on what people will reasonably pay. Tivo
thinks people will pay that much extra for the 80 GB box, and they're
probaby right.

> - David
>
> If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem
> as a nail. - A. Maslow
>
>
>
> To email me, omit the 789 from the above address

--
tooloud
Remove nothing to reply...

[Matt Ackeret]

In article >,
David Z > wrote:
>From what I've read, virtually nobody records anything of visual quality
>at the slowest speed.

I'm *not* trying to be argumentative, just giving a contradictory data
point. (i.e. I'm not arguing just to argue..)

I'm not sure what you mean by "anything of visual quality", but I record
virtually everything at basic.

For things that I think I will be dubbing off (e.g. sometimes musical
performances from late night talk shows, "er"), I record at one step above
basic.

If/when I get more drive space (I have a 60 gig drive in there now, which is
a fairly good amount, because it gives me a decent amount of space, but
not so much that I record tons and tons and tons of stuff that I never watch..
I'm finally *catching up* on a lot of stuff this summer.. more so than in
previous summers.. But I think there are currently fewer reality shows on that
I like.), I will probably *try* cranking up the quality for a while.

But _for me_, the step between basic and one above basic made more difference
than higher qualities.

The original signal quality is more of an issue to me (so even without
the stupid cable box that I finally got rid of, I am running through fewer
splitters than I used to, unless I need that many when I am not home).

>The questions are (1) why not sell a 120 HD TiVo? and (2) why make the
>customer pay an unreasonable premium for an 80 GB unit?

Because they think/know people will pay it?

Those who think it is unreasonable probably already know they can do it
themselves (with the caveats).

I suspect that in the longer run, some of the newer PVRs / standalone
digital recorders (e.g. the Apex) will cause the lowering of prices of
higher capacity units. I just checked Amazon, they're listing the Apex
40 hour (40 gig) DVD player / hard drive recorder at $250.

[MegaZone]

"Chris Lemon" > shaped the electrons to say:
>Yay! A new convert! Best show on television, bottom line, I tell you. :)

Well, I don't know about best - but it is one of my favorites. I
don't even cook often (I live alone, too much hassle) but it is fun to
watch and he's a food *geek*, which is great.

-MZ, CISSP #3762, RHCE #806199299900541
--
> Gweep, Discordian, Author, Engineer, me..
"A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men" 508-755-4098
<URL:http://www.megazone.org/> <URL:http://www.eyrie-productions.com/> Eris

[MegaZone]

(Matt Ackeret) shaped the electrons to say:
>season), so much so that I think that a recorder with *more* than 2 tuners
>(such as the vaporware Moxi), or cooperative recording between physically
>separate units, would be a huge huge huge huge improvement, something I

Having two units with HMO is definitely great - but coordination is a
manual process. What I've done is put the 'bottom' block of SPs from
my main unit on the secondary unit, so it gets things that conflict.

Automatic cooperation would be a godsend.

-MZ, CISSP #3762, RHCE #806199299900541
--
> Gweep, Discordian, Author, Engineer, me..
"A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men" 508-755-4098
<URL:http://www.megazone.org/> <URL:http://www.eyrie-productions.com/> Eris

[MegaZone]

Jeff Frane > shaped the electrons to say:
>My question is: who the hell needs 24 hours of tv recorded? There just

Well, I doubt anyone *needs* it - but I want it pretty damn badly.

My life varies, a lot, there are times when I'm MASSIVELY busy with
work and other commitments, and I might not really watch TV for a few
weeks. Then other times life is calm and I have time to chill, and I
can watch a few hours a night. TiVo lets me level it out - when I'm
too busy recordings build up, then I'll watch them over time.

Right now I'm on vacation, away from home for 10 days. Hopefully my
units are recording the shows I'm not there for, so I'll have a fair
bit to catch up on - it is worse when I'm away during the new episodes
season.

And sometimes a network will start pumping out episodes of an older
series I didn't catch before. I got into Xena after it was wrapped,
at one point I ended up with over 30 hours of just Xena because I was
too busy to watch them and Oxygen was airing two a day.

-MZ, CISSP #3762, RHCE #806199299900541
--
> Gweep, Discordian, Author, Engineer, me..
"A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men" 508-755-4098
<URL:http://www.megazone.org/> <URL:http://www.eyrie-productions.com/> Eris

[MegaZone]

"David Z" > shaped the electrons to say:
>The questions are (1) why not sell a 120 HD TiVo? and

Not enough demand. The bigger demand is lower pricing, not more
capacity. TiVo started out with 14 hour systems, now they're 80
hours. My bet is that they sell far more 40GB units than 80GB units
and that they feel 120GB units just aren't cost effective.

Note that RTV has sold 40, 80, 160, and 320GB units - then they
dropped the 320GB system, even though they sold it for a HUGE markup.
Gossip is that the 160GB unit doesn't sell well either, and they sell
mostly 40GB units.

>(2) why make the customer pay an unreasonable premium for an 80 GB unit?

Unreasonable is a judgement call. If my hypothesis is correct, and
they do sell far more 40GB units, then they probably get better
discounts on them. It wouldn't surprise me to find that the price
differential for TiVo is greater than the retail differential. And
remember, TiVo has traditionally lost money on HW, or barely broken
even. They've publically stated that they are pushing for lower
priced systems to get into more homes - they may be taking a larger
loss on the 40GB unit just to get into more homes, make up the money
on subscriptions and HMO, etc.

Personally I would buy a 40 hour unit and upgrade it myself. Someone
else said 1% might have upgraded their units. TiVo has ~750,000
subscribers - I'd be surprised if 7500 people have really done an
upgrade.

TiVo will sell more units with a lower price than with a larger drive.

-MZ, CISSP #3762, RHCE #806199299900541
--
> Gweep, Discordian, Author, Engineer, me..
"A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men" 508-755-4098
<URL:http://www.megazone.org/> <URL:http://www.eyrie-productions.com/> Eris

[MegaZone]

(Stephen Foskett) shaped the electrons to say:
>Exactly - the difference between 40GB and 80GB isn't 40GB, it's 2x! In other

Heh - hi Stephe.

>words, for $250 you get x and for just 40% more money, you get 2x! From that
>standpoint, the differential looks ok.

I don't feel like digging up the latest TiVo SEC docs since I'm
gweeping from my hotel room on vacation, but I recall that TiVo was
still losing money, or teetering on that edge, on the HW sales. I
would not at all be surprised if they accept a bigger loss on the 40GB
units to build market share since they make money on subscriptions and
HMO. And they can't sell HMO, and any possible future add-ons, until
the unit is in the home. (I wonder whatever happened to the planned
gaming on TiVo...)

>As for why there isn't (yet) a 120GB TiVo, I'd say such a thing is on the
>way soon. There's lead time for testing, getting supplies in order, etc.

Oh, I fully expect 120GB units. And someday we'll get 300GB units -
that's the march of technology. Just look at the pricing of a ~40hour
unit today compared to a ~14hour unit, the first TiVos.

-MZ, CISSP #3762, RHCE #806199299900541
--
> Gweep, Discordian, Author, Engineer, me..
"A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men" 508-755-4098
<URL:http://www.megazone.org/> <URL:http://www.eyrie-productions.com/> Eris

[Stephane Beaudry]

> Automatic cooperation would be a godsend.

Amen to that, Tivo if you are reading, I will add a third Tivo to my
collection if you implement this, probably another down the line. Of course,
it would be nice to give a break to owners with more then one Tivo and
reduce the cost of a Full Time subscription(you know, like you did with
HMO). I know the subscription is tied to the unit, not the account, well
then if I sell or give the unit to someone else, then make sure to charge
them the difference, after all why charge 300$ per unit for multi unit
households, it simply makes no marketing sense. Another great idea to make
money, why not offer the option of buying Tivo Basic for our old
unsubscribed units, I would probably pay 100$ per for that option.

[Stephane Beaudry]

> Personally I would buy a 40 hour unit and upgrade it myself. Someone
> else said 1% might have upgraded their units. TiVo has ~750,000
> subscribers - I'd be surprised if 7500 people have really done an
> upgrade.

So would and I came up with 1%, I was just trying to make a point, but a few
thousand sounds plausible, Weaknees and others have turned the upgrade
process into a business, so their must be a significant number of people
that want the upgrade, but not enough to make it cost effective (and let's
agree that it isn't cost effective to upgrade a Tivo if you charge yourself
50$ an hour to do it) for Tivo to market larger capacity.

[jcondon]

A friend of mine has a Series2 SA that he upgraded. He just got a HDRV2
and did an upgrade on that.

I have two HDRV2's one I just upgraded (yesterday) to 243 hours. The
other is NOT upgraded.

The bigest issue with my upgrade was getting access to a machine that
could read/write 160 gig drives. Last year I got a Laptop and got rid
of my desktop at home.

I also have a Replay 4080 that I upgraded last year (added 120 gig HD).

Its possible that less then 1% of Tivo owners do the upgrades but, those
that do have more then one unit and upgrade all of them.

MegaZone wrote:

> Personally I would buy a 40 hour unit and upgrade it myself. Someone
> else said 1% might have upgraded their units. TiVo has ~750,000
> subscribers - I'd be surprised if 7500 people have really done an
> upgrade.
>
> TiVo will sell more units with a lower price than with a larger drive.
>
> -MZ, CISSP #3762, RHCE #806199299900541

[herzog@uhhh.org]

>>On Thu, 3 Jul 2003, jcondon wrote:
> Its possible that less then 1% of Tivo owners do the upgrades but, those
> that do have more then one unit and upgrade all of them.

I concur. I own a Philips SA (series 1) and a HDVR2; both of which I have
upgraded (added TurboNET to my Philips as well).

I also spend a non-trivial amount of time upgrading TiVo's belonging to
my friends and family.


--
Larry Herzog Jr. "Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain
ZRXOA #1029 conceit, but in humility consider others
better than yourselves." - Philippians 2:3

[David Z]

"MegaZone" > wrote in message
...
> "David Z" > shaped the electrons to say:
> >The questions are (1) why not sell a 120 HD TiVo? and
>
> Not enough demand.

Who's to say how much is enough? I'm thinking of buying a TiVo for my
sister. If they had a 120 Gb unit I'd buy it for her. If I were buying
one today for myself, that's the size I'd prefer. From the discussions
on this NG, it sounds like that would be a popular size.

I understand that there's a company that will do the upgrade for you.
Doesn't the fact that this company is in business prove that there's a
demand? Not to mention all the folks in this NG (like you and me) who
gone to great lengths to achieve the larger capacity TiVo by upgradsing.

> My bet is that they sell far more 40GB units than 80GB units..

Agreed.

> ..and that they feel 120GB units just aren't cost effective.

I don't get that. It seems to me that the cost of offering a 120 Gb
unit for a "reasonable" additional cost is nil.

> Note that RTV has sold 40, 80, 160, and 320GB units - then they
> dropped the 320GB system, even though they sold it for a HUGE markup.

That's not suprising. But there's a huge difference between 120 GB and
320 GB.

> Gossip is that the 160GB unit doesn't sell well either, and they sell
> mostly 40GB units.

They don't need to sell all that many 160 Gb units because there's
virtually no cost in offering it. What's the price difference between
the 40, 80 and 160 Gb units?

> >(2) why make the customer pay an unreasonable premium for an 80 GB
unit?
>
> Unreasonable is a judgement call.

If you buy a computer from Dell online today (check their website for
yourself), they put a 40 GB HD in it as standard and charge $60 more for
a PC with an $80 Gb HD and $120 more for a PC with a 120 Gb HD. Even
those price differences sound high to me because I just bought a brand
new WD 120 GB drive (w/8 Mb cache) for $70 after rebate.

> If my hypothesis is correct, and
> they do sell far more 40GB units, then they probably get better
> discounts on them. It wouldn't surprise me to find that the price
> differential for TiVo is greater than the retail differential.

Are you saying that Tivo pays over $100 more for an 80 Gb drive than
they do for a 40 Gb drive?! No way, Jose!

> And remember, TiVo has traditionally lost money on HW, or barely
broken
> even. They've publically stated that they are pushing for lower
> priced systems to get into more homes - they may be taking a larger
> loss on the 40GB unit just to get into more homes, make up the money
> on subscriptions and HMO, etc.

Exactly. Their objective is to sell as many units as possible.

Do they think that the person who is willing to spend more for the
larger capacity will pay any price for it? Or do they think that the
person who is willing to spend more for the larger capacity shouldn't be
subsidized to the same extent as the base unit customer?

In any event, when I see the price differential, I know that it not as
good a deal as the base unit. And I resist buying it because I feel
like I'm getting hosed.

> Personally I would buy a 40 hour unit and upgrade it myself.

That's what I did. But I don't want to go through that again.

> Someone else said 1% might have upgraded their units. TiVo has
~750,000
> subscribers - I'd be surprised if 7500 people have really done an
> upgrade.

I wouldn't be surprised. The company that upgrades them plus all the
do-it-yourselfers (like you and me) could conceivably add up to that
amount or close to it.

> TiVo will sell more units with a lower price than with a larger drive.

Yes, but they'll sell more units in total if they offer a popular
selection of capacities at reasonable prices.

- David

If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as
a nail. - A. Maslow



To email me, omit the 789 from the above address

[David Z]

"MegaZone" > wrote in message
...
> (Stephen Foskett) shaped the electrons
to say:

> Oh, I fully expect 120GB units.

So what are they waiting for?

> ...that's the march of technology

Even if they did it today, they'd be way behind the curve.

- David

If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as
a nail. - A. Maslow



To email me, omit the 789 from the above address

[MegaZone]

"David Z" > shaped the electrons to say:
>Who's to say how much is enough? I'm thinking of buying a TiVo for my

TiVo. Period. They decide, it is their product.

>Doesn't the fact that this company is in business prove that there's a
>demand? Not to mention all the folks in this NG (like you and me) who

Not at all. There are companies that'll hotrod yoru car for you -
that doesn't mean there is enough demand for Honda to start selling
hot rodded cars off the lot.

Something being a sustainable aftermarket business does NOT mean it is
a sustainable primary business.

>I don't get that. It seems to me that the cost of offering a 120 Gb
>unit for a "reasonable" additional cost is nil.

Not true, by that comment I would think you haven't worked for a
hardware vendor. (I have.) Even a 'simple' change like just using a
larger drive has many costs, and it can, and ususally does, drive up
the costs on the *other* units because it impacts the economies of
scale.

>Do they think that the person who is willing to spend more for the
>larger capacity will pay any price for it? Or do they think that the
>person who is willing to spend more for the larger capacity shouldn't be
>subsidized to the same extent as the base unit customer?

Probably both.

Check out just about any home electronics, there is usually a 'premium
tax'. Pioneer will sell a standard unit and an Elite unit, with very
few differences, and internally basically the same thing, and the
Elite will be WAY more expensive. You really are paying for the label
just because you want the high end. The forthcoming Pioneer
DVD-R/TiVo units were announced at $1200 for the base unit and $1800
for the Elite - but the press release seems to indicate they have the
same features, except the base is 80GB and the Elite 120GB. $600 for
40GB, unless there are some *serious* feature differences that haven't
been announced.

>I wouldn't be surprised. The company that upgrades them plus all the
>do-it-yourselfers (like you and me) could conceivably add up to that
>amount or close to it.

I really doubt it.

>Yes, but they'll sell more units in total if they offer a popular
>selection of capacities at reasonable prices.

ROI. It all comes down to ROI.

-MZ, CISSP #3762, RHCE #806199299900541
--
> Gweep, Discordian, Author, Engineer, me..
"A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men" 508-755-4098
<URL:http://www.megazone.org/> <URL:http://www.eyrie-productions.com/> Eris

[MegaZone]

"David Z" > shaped the electrons to say:
>> Oh, I fully expect 120GB units.
>So what are they waiting for?

Enough demand to make it worth while.

>> ...that's the march of technology
>Even if they did it today, they'd be way behind the curve.

In HD capacity? Maybe. But really, I firmly believe that the bulk of
people buying TiVos today have absolutely no need for 120GB, and
wouldn't buy it if offered.

One of my units is still 40GB, and I know it is easy to upgrade - but
I don't need *two* high capacity units. Heck, the 180GB I have in my
main unit is way more than I need 95% of the time. And I record
everything at Best, just because I have the capacity.

I know geeks for whom upgrading the drive would be trivial, who still
have unmodded 30 hour units and don't care. They don't need more
room.

TiVo, to date, has deliberatley NOT gone after the high end, they're
trying to penetrate the middle of the market, which is the biggest
slice. They seem to be leaving the fancy stuff to licensees like
Toshiba and Pioneer.

-MZ, CISSP #3762, RHCE #806199299900541
--
> Gweep, Discordian, Author, Engineer, me..
"A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men" 508-755-4098
<URL:http://www.megazone.org/> <URL:http://www.eyrie-productions.com/> Eris

[David Z]

"MegaZone" > wrote in message
...

> TiVo, to date, has deliberatley NOT gone after the high end, they're
> trying to penetrate the middle of the market, which is the biggest
> slice. They seem to be leaving the fancy stuff to licensees like
> Toshiba and Pioneer.

That's probably right. I get the sense that TiVo would rather not sell
hardware at all, but do so only to keep TiVo (the software) viable.

Thanks for your thoughtful and informed responses.

- David

If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as
a nail. - A. Maslow



To email me, omit the 789 from the above address

[David Z]

"Rod Smith" > wrote in message
...

> I'd be surprised if TiVo didn't eventually offer a 120GB unit.

It's just a matter of time.

> Falling disk prices, changing availability of disk models
> they use now, and so on are likely to force
> TiVo to make a change at some point.

Exactly. That's where most of the responses to my questions have fallen
short. When did TiVo first offer the 80 GB unit? One or two years ago?
And how much has changed in that time regarding the cost of hard drives
of various sizes?

When I first bought my TiVo (in April 2001), the 40 GB HD was a
significant portion of the cost of the unit. Today, you could probably
buy a 120 GB HD for less than a 40 GB HD cost back then. And the prices
go down every day. Back then (I don't recall exactly), a base PC
probably came with a 4 GB HD. Today a base PC comes with a 40 GB HD.

Yet during that time period, TiVo hasn't kept up with the pace, IMHO.
And a TiVo is much more HD space demanding than a PC.

- David

If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as
a nail. - A. Maslow



To email me, omit the 789 from the above address

[MegaZone]

"David Z" > shaped the electrons to say:
>Exactly. That's where most of the responses to my questions have fallen
>short. When did TiVo first offer the 80 GB unit? One or two years ago?

Less than a year ago, IIRC.

>And how much has changed in that time regarding the cost of hard drives
>of various sizes?

Actually not a hell of a lot.

>When I first bought my TiVo (in April 2001), the 40 GB HD was a
>significant portion of the cost of the unit. Today, you could probably
>buy a 120 GB HD for less than a 40 GB HD cost back then. And the prices

I price drives often enough - that's not true.

And in April 2001 TiVo was losing money on HW, they need the HW costs
to drop while keeping their pricing steady to make the HW break even,
or be profitable. If they keep upping the drive, and therefor keeping
the costs at the same level, they'd either keep losing money or they'd
have to raise the price. And it is well established that they are
working on LOWERING the price.

>go down every day. Back then (I don't recall exactly), a base PC
>probably came with a 4 GB HD. Today a base PC comes with a 40 GB HD.

April 2001? At least 20GB in most machines, 30-40GB was common.

>Yet during that time period, TiVo hasn't kept up with the pace, IMHO.

Your opinion - fine. Not TiVo's, and not one everyone shares (I
don't).

You can either buy what they're offering and upgrade it, or you can
look for another vendor that offers the capacity that you want.

>And a TiVo is much more HD space demanding than a PC.

Maybe for some users.

-MZ, CISSP #3762, RHCE #806199299900541
--
> Gweep, Discordian, Author, Engineer, me..
"A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men" 508-755-4098
<URL:http://www.megazone.org/> <URL:http://www.eyrie-productions.com/> Eris

[David Z]

"MegaZone" > wrote in message
...

> >When I first bought my TiVo (in April 2001), the 40 GB HD was a
> >significant portion of the cost of the unit. Today, you could
probably
> >buy a 120 GB HD for less than a 40 GB HD cost back then. And the
prices
>
> I price drives often enough - that's not true.

Well then your memory is off. In April 2001 a 40 GB HD cost $200 to
$250. That's more than twice the cost of a 120 GB HD today. For
historical HD prices see:
http://www.littletechshoppe.com/ns1625/winchest.html

> >Yet during that time period, TiVo hasn't kept up with the pace, IMHO.
>
> Your opinion - fine. Not TiVo's, and not one everyone shares (I
> don't).

It's fact, not opinion. In April 2001 the cost of HDs was about $6 to
$7 per GB. Today it's about $1 per GB. TiVo has not kept up with that
pace. Not even close.

> >And a TiVo is much more HD space demanding than a PC.
>
> Maybe for some users.

No, for most users. In fact the vast majority of users.

- David

If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as
a nail. - A. Maslow



To email me, omit the 789 from the above address

[MegaZone]

"David Z" > shaped the electrons to say:
>Well then your memory is off. In April 2001 a 40 GB HD cost $200 to
>$250. That's more than twice the cost of a 120 GB HD today. For
>historical HD prices see:

I think I was thinking 2002. Am I messing up the timeline? I thought
the Series2, which was the first 40GB model, didn't first appear until
LATE 2001 - and that was the AT&T model. Then they started selling
the TiVo branded 60GB models in early 2002. I ordered one pretty much
the day they put the order form up. Around that time I also purchased
3 120GB drives, for something liek $150 each, IIRC. One for the
Series2, and 2 to upgrade a used Series1 unit I picked up around the
same time.

>> Your opinion - fine. Not TiVo's, and not one everyone shares (I
>> don't).
>It's fact, not opinion. In April 2001 the cost of HDs was about $6 to
>$7 per GB. Today it's about $1 per GB. TiVo has not kept up with that
>pace. Not even close.

No, it is your opinion. You continue to ignore the fact that:
1. The HD is just one component.
2. They started out selling the HW below costs, but keeping the same
HW while the actual HW costs drops they can break even and then move
into profitability. And, actually, they've reduced the pricing while
keeping the HW the same - plus the specials, rebates, etc. 'Keeping
pace' would mean continuing to bleed red ink on the HW because using
larger drives would keep their HW costs from dropping.

>> >And a TiVo is much more HD space demanding than a PC.
>> Maybe for some users.
>No, for most users. In fact the vast majority of users.

I know a number of people with a lot less HD space used on their TiVo
than on their PCs, a lot of middle of the road PCs come with 60GB or
more these days, even laptops tend to start around 30-40GB, with 60GB
options.

A lot of people record and watch things on their TiVo without keeping
stuff around for a long time, so they never use up the drive. And a
lot of people (even posters here) use lower quality recording modes
because it is acceptable to them (a friend of mine uses Basic even
though he has expanded his unit - I can't stand the quality, he
doesn't care).

-MZ, CISSP #3762, RHCE #806199299900541
--
> Gweep, Discordian, Author, Engineer, me..
"A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men" 508-755-4098
<URL:http://www.megazone.org/> <URL:http://www.eyrie-productions.com/> Eris

[David Z]

"MegaZone" > wrote in message
...

> >Well then your memory is off. In April 2001 a 40 GB HD cost $200 to
> >$250. That's more than twice the cost of a 120 GB HD today. For
> >historical HD prices see:
>
> I think I was thinking 2002. Am I messing up the timeline?

Yes.

> I thought the Series2, which was the first 40GB
> model didn't first appear until
> LATE 2001 - and that was the AT&T model.

I've repeatedly referred to the 40 GB Series 1 that I bought in April
2001 (see above quote). You haven't been paying attention.

Now that I think about it, I recall thinking what a great deal it was at
the time since the 40 GB drive was worth at least half the $399 purchase
price of the unit.

> >> Your opinion - fine. Not TiVo's, and not one everyone shares (I
> >> don't).
> >It's fact, not opinion. In April 2001 the cost of HDs was about $6
to
> >$7 per GB. Today it's about $1 per GB. TiVo has not kept up with
that
> >pace. Not even close.
>
> No, it is your opinion.

Don't confuse you with the facts, eh?

> You continue to ignore the fact that:
> 1. The HD is just one component.

I haven't ignored anything. But you have...

> 2. They started out selling the HW below costs, but keeping the same
> HW while the actual HW costs drops they can break even and then move
> into profitability. And, actually, they've reduced the pricing while
> keeping the HW the same - plus the specials, rebates, etc.

It's no different from the cell phone companies. They give away the
phones to get you to pay monthly. It's all about ROI, right?

> 'Keeping pace' would mean continuing to bleed
> red ink on the HW because using
> larger drives would keep their HW costs from dropping.

Not true. When they first offered the 80 GB unit, the price
differnetial between the 40 and the 80 was probably a good value. But
prices drop continuously, and now $100 for the upgrade is overpriced.
And 120 GB drives have come down in price so much lately that adding a
120 GB unit would make a lot of sense today.

> >> >And a TiVo is much more HD space demanding than a PC.
> >> Maybe for some users.
> >No, for most users. In fact the vast majority of users.
>
> I know a number of people with a lot less HD space used on their TiVo
> than on their PCs, a lot of middle of the road PCs come with 60GB or
> more these days, even laptops tend to start around 30-40GB, with 60GB
> options.

Let's take all the people that bought a 40 GB TiVo and all the people
who bought a PC with a 40 GB drive in the last year or 2. What
percentage of each group do you think ran short of HD space (for their
respective needs) within 3 months? 6 months? 12 months?

If you think the percentage is higher for the PC group in any of those
time frames, then you're living on another planet.

- David

If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as
a nail. - A. Maslow



To email me, omit the 789 from the above address

[Rod Smith]

In article >,
(MegaZone) writes:
>
> "David Z" > shaped the electrons to say:
>>I've repeatedly referred to the 40 GB Series 1 that I bought in April
>>2001 (see above quote). You haven't been paying attention.
>
> Ok - WHAT 40GB Series1? I'm not aware of any.

Many Series 1 DirecTiVos had a 40GB drive. According to
http://www.egotron.com/ptv/ptvintro.htm, Thompson's TiVo model (sold in
the UK) has a 40-hour capacity, but AFAIK it was the only 40-hour
standalone Series 1 TiVo produced. Based on his headers, David Z appears
to be posting from an Ameritech ADSL account, so it seems unlikely he'd
have a UK TiVo.

> So your 'good deal' was simple not a sustainable business model. Like
> many startups they were leveraging investment money to establish a
> competitive foothold in the market. But they couldn't keep pricing
> things at that level (which would be the case if they kept upping HW
> level instead of going for lower manufacturing costs) without going
> out of business.

Very well said.

--
Rod Smith,
http://www.rodsbooks.com
Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking

[Dr. Personality]

In article >, Rod Smith
> wrote:

> In article >,
> (MegaZone) writes:
> >
> > "David Z" > shaped the electrons to say:
> >>I've repeatedly referred to the 40 GB Series 1 that I bought in April
> >>2001 (see above quote). You haven't been paying attention.
> >
> > Ok - WHAT 40GB Series1? I'm not aware of any.
>
> Many Series 1 DirecTiVos had a 40GB drive. According to
> http://www.egotron.com/ptv/ptvintro.htm, Thompson's TiVo model (sold in
> the UK) has a 40-hour capacity, but AFAIK it was the only 40-hour
> standalone Series 1 TiVo produced. Based on his headers, David Z appears
> to be posting from an Ameritech ADSL account, so it seems unlikely he'd
> have a UK TiVo.


Just to add to the confusion, my two Sony SAT-T60s each had a single 40
GB drive. The units were built in September and October of 2000.
(Some SAT-T60s came with two drives, a 30 GB and a 15 GB.)

As for the size of the drives, they've made a business decision, and I
think it's a good one. I saw a study about VCRs that said 60% of shows
taped never get watched. They just get taped over. Also, 25 hours of
capacity equals about a dozen videocassettes at SP. Does anybody
really keep a dozen videocassettes at hand, swapping them around and
taping over stuff endlessly? Looking at it that way, the capacity of a
standard TiVo probably looks pretty generous to most buyers.

If there's a problem here, it's that the availability of upgrades isn't
generally known by those users who might want one. I don't think
that's TiVo's problem, though.

[Rod Smith]

In article >,
"Dr. Personality" > writes:
>
> In article >, Rod Smith
> > wrote:
>>
>> Many Series 1 DirecTiVos had a 40GB drive.
>
> Just to add to the confusion, my two Sony SAT-T60s each had a single 40
> GB drive.

That doesn't add to the confusion at all, since the Sony SAT-T60 is a
Series 1 DirecTiVo.

--
Rod Smith,
http://www.rodsbooks.com
Author of books on Linux, FreeBSD, and networking

[David Z]

"Rod Smith" > wrote in message
...

> The prices on that Web site seem a bit out of line. I don't have
anything
> from April of 2001, but I do have receipts from two drives I bought
> slightly later in 2001:
>
> May, 2001: 60GB WD 5400 rpm at CompUSA: $170 - $60 rebate = $110
> December, 2001: 80GB Maxtor 5400 rpm from NewEgg: $136
>
> Today, the best price listed at http://www.pricewatch.com on a 120GB
> drive is $91. My own personal data doesn't include 40GB drives from
2001,
> but given the $110 price on that 60GB unit, it seems likely that the
best
> price on a 40GB unit would have been under $100, and probably under
$91.
> It would have been close, though.

The prices on that website are retail. Read the fine print.

> >> >Yet during that time period, TiVo hasn't kept up with the pace,
IMHO.
> >>
> >> Your opinion - fine. Not TiVo's, and not one everyone shares (I
> >> don't).
> >
> > It's fact, not opinion. In April 2001 the cost of HDs was about $6
to
> > $7 per GB. Today it's about $1 per GB. TiVo has not kept up with
that
> > pace. Not even close.
>
> Based on the prices I paid, in May of 2001, the cost of hard disks was
> $1.83/GB, and in December it was $1.70/GB. Based on the PriceWatch
best
> price for a 120GB unit today, it's currently $0.76/GB. (These numbers
are
> all on the low side, since I tend to buy at close to the best price I
can
> find.) This works out to a ratio of 2.4:1, not the 7:1 you're
claiming.
> Of course, this comparison is also based on different drive sizes.
Price
> Watch shows the best price on 60GB and 80GB units today to be $59 and
> $67, respectively, for ratios of 1.9:1 and 2.0:1.

I can't find an authoritative source, but I think HDs reatil today for
about $2 per GB. The would mean about a 3.5:1 ratio in the retail price
since April 2001 or about a 71% drop in the price of HDs.

> Knowing whether TiVo has "kept pace" is tricky,

Agreed.

> since the hard disk isn't the only factor in TiVo pricing

Of course.

> and, as others have pointed out, TiVo was
> losing money on the hardware two years ago.
> Expecting them to continue
> bleeding red ink is, IMHO, unreasonable.

Did I say they should? Show me where I said or implied that. In fact,
I have never questioned the price of the 40 GB unit. I think TiVo is
great and the 40 GB price is still a great deal today. It's funny how
my raising a couple of questions in this NG has resulted in people
attributing all kinds of things to me that I never said or implied.

> Given that disk prices haven't
> dropped as dramatically as you've suggested...

So, the price of HDs has dropped by about 71% rather than 85% as first
estimated.

> ...means that, even assuming
> TiVo's willing to continue losing money
> the ratio of TiVo disk size to
> TiVo cost shouldn't have changed as
> dramatically as you seem to believe
> it should have.

Again, I never said anything of the kind. See above discussion.

> >> >And a TiVo is much more HD space demanding than a PC.
> >>
> >> Maybe for some users.
> >
> > No, for most users. In fact the vast majority of users.
>
> You're making an unsubstantiated claim. It may be true, but without
data
> to back it up, making such a strong claim doesn't help your case,
IMHO.

I'll pose the same question to you as I posed to MegaZone. Let's take
all the people that bought a 40 GB TiVo and all the people who bought a
PC with a 40 GB drive in the last year or 2. What percentage of each
group do you think ran short of HD space (for their respective needs)
within 3 months? 6 months? 12 months?

If you think the percentage is higher for the PC group in any of those
time frames, then you, too, are living on another planet.

- David

If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as
a nail. - A. Maslow



To email me, omit the 789 from the above address

[David Z]

"MegaZone" > wrote in message
...
>
> >I've repeatedly referred to the 40 GB Series 1 that I bought in April
> >2001 (see above quote). You haven't been paying attention.
>
> Ok - WHAT 40GB Series1? I'm not aware of any.

It's a Philips DSR6000 Series 1 DTivo. I bought it in April 2001 for
$399.

> >It's no different from the cell phone companies. They give away the
> >phones to get you to pay monthly. It's all about ROI, right?
>
> Yes - which supports my argument and not your argument.

Perhaps if we could discuss rather than argue we might shed more light
than heat.

> They were NOT
> making it up on the contracts. It was NOT working out like cell
> phones. With the cellphone you have to commit to a year, or two, to
> get a discount on the phone - in almost every case. With TiVo there
> is no commitment. There are generally no lifetime options on
> cellphones either. The TiVo model is NOT the same as the cell phone
> model, there are significant differences from a business perspective.
>
> And TiVo, on the whole, was losing money. So obviously they were NOT
> making it up in subscriptions. They had to cost costs, reduce losses,
> and increase revenues. A major drain on their bottom line was their
> HW losses, this was especially true with the Series1. TiVo has
> repeatedly stated that one of the design goals of the S2 was to reduce
> the manufacturing costs to reduce the losses. They also stopped
> offering subsidies to support the sale of the HW, which they had done
> with the S1 units.
>
> So your 'good deal' was simple not a sustainable business model. Like
> many startups they were leveraging investment money to establish a
> competitive foothold in the market. But they couldn't keep pricing
> things at that level (which would be the case if they kept upping HW
> level instead of going for lower manufacturing costs) without going
> out of business.

All of these are good agruments against someone who takes the position
that the price of the 40 GB unit is too high. But I don't take that
position. In fact, I believe that the 40 GB unit is a great deal and
recommend it very highly to any who wants that size HD.

> >Not true. When they first offered the 80 GB unit, the price
> >differnetial between the 40 and the 80 was probably a good value.
But
> >prices drop continuously, and now $100 for the upgrade is overpriced.
>
> I still don't think you've followed.

Really? Have you followed me?

> >Let's take all the people that bought a 40 GB TiVo and all the people
> >who bought a PC with a 40 GB drive in the last year or 2. What
> >percentage of each group do you think ran short of HD space (for
their
> >respective needs) within 3 months? 6 months? 12 months?

No response, eh?

As I said before it's simply a matter of time before we see a 120 GB
TiVo. At this point, TiVo is probably very preoccupied with delivering
on their product promises for later this year. Reassessing the HDs on
the current units is probably low on their priority list. But it's not
a matter of "if", it's a matter of "when."

Do you know how big the HDs on the HDTV units will be? I'd be surprised
if they put anything less than 120 GB in them. How many hours would a
120 GB HDTV TiVo store? About 30 hours or so?

- David

If the only tool you have is a hammer, you tend to see every problem as
a nail. - A. Maslow



To email me, omit the 789 from the above address

[MegaZone]

"David Z" > shaped the electrons to say:
>It's a Philips DSR6000 Series 1 DTivo. I bought it in April 2001 for
>$399.

I, and TiVo, consider the DirecTV units to be different beasts from
the standalones.

If you want to know why a larger drive hasn't been used - ask
DirecTV. *They* control the features of the integrated units.

>All of these are good agruments against someone who takes the position
>that the price of the 40 GB unit is too high. But I don't take that
>position. In fact, I believe that the 40 GB unit is a great deal and
>recommend it very highly to any who wants that size HD.

You prior posts sounded like you wanted them to keep upping the HD
capacity while selling units for the same price.

Now it sounds like you want them to offer more expensive units with a
larger drive?

Which is it?

The former loses them money, the latter doesn't appear to have a
substantial market justification based on current demand. I expect
it'll be one of the licensees who comes out with 120GB first, and
they'll sell it at a premium price.

>> >Let's take all the people that bought a 40 GB TiVo and all the people
>> >who bought a PC with a 40 GB drive in the last year or 2. What
>> >percentage of each group do you think ran short of HD space (for
>their
>> >respective needs) within 3 months? 6 months? 12 months?
>
>No response, eh?

I didn't think it was a meaningful question.

My response is that I think very, very few TiVo users ran out of
space. Because everyone I know who uses TiVo deletes shows after
watching them, and old shows are pushed off if they don't care to
watch them. So they *never* run out, or even run short, of space.

On the other hand I know many people who have had to put larger drives
in their PCs, or buy extenral expanstion USB/FW drives, because of
growing collections of MP3s, DIVX, etc.

>Do you know how big the HDs on the HDTV units will be? I'd be surprised
>if they put anything less than 120 GB in them. How many hours would a
>120 GB HDTV TiVo store? About 30 hours or so?

Depends on the HDTV resolution. 120GB would probably be fairly tight
for HDTV.

-MZ, CISSP #3762, RHCE #806199299900541
--
> Gweep, Discordian, Author, Engineer, me..
"A little nonsense now and then, is relished by the wisest men" 508-755-4098
<URL:http://www.megazone.org/> <URL:http://www.eyrie-productions.com/> Eris

[Ed Ellers]

John W > wrote:

"Its not unusual for companies to create a virtually no profit model in a
range as a "teaser" so that people think they can get what they want for a
low price - by the time they've actually handed over the credit card they've
decided on the model with all the extras for twice the price. Go and talk to
a new car dealer about it!"

Or, for that matter, there used to be a lot of TV sets that were available
in both beige (as one example) and a fake wood finish; the beige job was
designed to be sold at a low advertised price, while the woodgrain model was
priced to earn a better profit.

[Joe Smith]

David Z wrote:

> I'll pose the same question to you as I posed to MegaZone. Let's take
> all the people that bought a 40 GB TiVo and all the people who bought a
> PC with a 40 GB drive in the last year or 2. What percentage of each
> group do you think ran short of HD space (for their respective needs)
> within 3 months? 6 months? 12 months?
>
> If you think the percentage is higher for the PC group in any of those
> time frames, then you, too, are living on another planet.

Considering that most people do not use Keep Until I Delete, I'd say
hardly any of the TiVo users run out of space. (My wife is happy with
her 30-hour unit; it has about 4 hours of programs at any given time.)

The people I know that ordered PCs with 40 or 80 gig disks are the ones
who collect or edit video. I'd say that 50% of that group ran out of
disk space within 6 months.

-Joe

[Jeff Rife]

MegaZone ) wrote in alt.video.ptv.tivo:
> >Do you know how big the HDs on the HDTV units will be? I'd be surprised
> >if they put anything less than 120 GB in them. How many hours would a
> >120 GB HDTV TiVo store? About 30 hours or so?
>
> Depends on the HDTV resolution.

Not really. The only flavors of HD available are 720p and 1080i, and both
need at least 15Mbps to look decent, and OTA can never be more than 19Mbps,
so you pretty much end up with a small range of possibilities. Satellite
and cable HD *could* be a lot higher bitrate, but it's unlikely that will
happen because they only have to compete against OTA.

> 120GB would probably be fairly tight
> for HDTV.

This is definitely true. You get about 12 hours of HD with that much space.

--
Jeff Rife |
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