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Comcast ESPNHD



 
 
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  #1  
Old August 1st 03, 11:11 PM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default Comcast ESPNHD

Please don't take any of my post with a harsh tone. I don't want to attack anyone I just wan't
to see if I can confirm my ideas.

First off wow! -- Now for your post ... I will assume that you are using a
4:3 HDTV. Also your STB does a force 1080i @ 16:9 for your component
output? See on a 4:3 HDTV programs that are orginal HD content will fill
the screen except for top/bottom, if your TV does a fill it will scretch to
fill the screen. 16:9 TVs should be filled.


Yes, I couldn't agree more with every word you said. I see no reason to distort the HD
image to fill a 4:3 television.



As for 4:3 original SD content,
this will always happen, its a 4:3 picture sent out a component output it
will have black bars top/bottom right/left ... Well what to do?


With all respect, this isn't true at all.
The component output can send at least 480i/480p/720p/1080i.
The resolution for SDTV is 480p/480i and as long as the rule is followed there
aren't any problems. Its much simpler to send the programs at the correct resolution versus
leaving the burdon upon the consumer to buy extra hardware and re-adjust the settings for
each channel. If the user want's to distort the 4:3 image into a 16:9 ratio then that should
be up to the user.

Also stop blaming the content providers, they send HD when its HD and SD
when its SD. What you need to do is find a STB that is selectable through
the components (480i, 480p, etc) and that can do zoom and fill. I would
bet to guess that you are using an SA3100HD from Comcast.


All the providers except whyy are sending all the SDTV DTV content as HDTV content.
ABC and NBC are maintaining the 4:3 ratio but sending it at the HDTV 1080i resolution
which is supposed to be reserved for 16:9 content. Thus the image is 4:3 inside a 16:9.
This makes the image a 4:3 inside a 16:9 inside a 4:3 on a 4:3 DTV. ESPN's DTV channel
seems to be stretching and distorting the 4:3 SDTV DTV content to fit a 16:9 window.
Many people (including the reps at comcast) don't seem to know you can buy digital
cable boxes. They haven't seemed to apear in the market much and its an added expense.
Also support for setting up an owned digital cable box is discourged.
I assume zooming would also degrade quality of an already SDTV DTV image. If the SDTV
content is simply sent as SDTV DTV things are much more simple.

Lastly stop asking the same question and go read the FAQs from your cable
provide, STB provider or one of the sites dedicated to these topics.


Sorry but the issues I'm bringing up aren't covered by the cable provider or the hardware.
The literature explains how to modify the the content but assumes that the content is
sent in the appropriate DTV format in order to be able to modify it to get proper results.

Please by no means take any offense by my attemt to provide insight.
I believe everthing I said in contradiction to the replied post is accurate.


  #2  
Old August 3rd 03, 01:06 AM
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

Please don't take any of my post with a harsh tone. I don't want to attack anyone I just wan't
to see if I can confirm my ideas.

First off wow! -- Now for your post ... I will assume that you are using a
4:3 HDTV. Also your STB does a force 1080i @ 16:9 for your component
output? See on a 4:3 HDTV programs that are orginal HD content will fill
the screen except for top/bottom, if your TV does a fill it will scretch to
fill the screen. 16:9 TVs should be filled.


Yes, I couldn't agree more with every word you said. I see no reason to distort the HD
image to fill a 4:3 television.



As for 4:3 original SD content,
this will always happen, its a 4:3 picture sent out a component output it
will have black bars top/bottom right/left ... Well what to do?


With all respect, this isn't true at all.
The component output can send at least 480i/480p/720p/1080i.
The resolution for SDTV is 480p/480i and as long as the rule is followed there
aren't any problems. Its much simpler to send the programs at the correct resolution versus
leaving the burdon upon the consumer to buy extra hardware and re-adjust the settings for
each channel. If the user want's to distort the 4:3 image into a 16:9 ratio then that should
be up to the user.

Also stop blaming the content providers, they send HD when its HD and SD
when its SD. What you need to do is find a STB that is selectable through
the components (480i, 480p, etc) and that can do zoom and fill. I would
bet to guess that you are using an SA3100HD from Comcast.


All the providers except whyy are sending all the SDTV DTV content as HDTV content.
ABC and NBC are maintaining the 4:3 ratio but sending it at the HDTV 1080i resolution
which is supposed to be reserved for 16:9 content. Thus the image is 4:3 inside a 16:9.
This makes the image a 4:3 inside a 16:9 inside a 4:3 on a 4:3 DTV. ESPN's DTV channel
seems to be stretching and distorting the 4:3 SDTV DTV content to fit a 16:9 window.
Many people (including the reps at comcast) don't seem to know you can buy digital
cable boxes. They haven't seemed to apear in the market much and its an added expense.
Also support for setting up an owned digital cable box is discourged.
I assume zooming would also degrade quality of an already SDTV DTV image. If the SDTV
content is simply sent as SDTV DTV things are much more simple.

Lastly stop asking the same question and go read the FAQs from your cable
provide, STB provider or one of the sites dedicated to these topics.


Sorry but the issues I'm bringing up aren't covered by the cable provider or the hardware.
The literature explains how to modify the the content but assumes that the content is
sent in the appropriate DTV format in order to be able to modify it to get proper results.

Please by no means take any offense by my attemt to provide insight.
I believe everthing I said in contradiction to the replied post is accurate.


  #3  
Old August 4th 03, 10:19 PM
Thumper
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 14:39:45 GMT, "ctsooner"
wrote:


netguy wrote in message
om...
Please don't take any of my post with a harsh tone. I don't want to attack

anyone I just wan't
to see if I can confirm my ideas.

First off wow! -- Now for your post ... I will assume that you are using

a
4:3 HDTV. Also your STB does a force 1080i @ 16:9 for your component
output? See on a 4:3 HDTV programs that are orginal HD content will fill
the screen except for top/bottom, if your TV does a fill it will scretch

to
fill the screen. 16:9 TVs should be filled.


Yes, I couldn't agree more with every word you said. I see no reason to

distort the HD
image to fill a 4:3 television.


HDTV by definition is @ 16:9. -- If it is a HDTV it is always assumed to
be broadcast this way -- Your STB is just doing wha the spec says -- output
this way regardless of what the source material is. Its the standard. Why
should they send one stream for 4:3 users and one for 16:9 users? (Which
they do by the way through multi-casting)

As for 4:3 original SD content,
this will always happen, its a 4:3 picture sent out a component output it
will have black bars top/bottom right/left ... Well what to do?


With all respect, this isn't true at all.
The component output can send at least 480i/480p/720p/1080i.
The resolution for SDTV is 480p/480i and as long as the rule is followed

there
aren't any problems. Its much simpler to send the programs at the correct

resolution versus
leaving the burdon upon the consumer to buy extra hardware and re-adjust

the settings for
each channel. If the user want's to distort the 4:3 image into a 16:9

ratio then that should
be up to the user.


Other than FOX's "Enhanced TV" which is 480P there I don't know of any other
programs running at 480P. Disney(ABC) has decided to run @ 720P OTA and for
ESPN on cable, but most cable providers (not sure about D* or E*) convert
this 1080i anyway. So right now you have a two options. SDTV at 480i or
HDTV at 1080i. And again I say HDTV content will have 16:9 aspect ratio
(this is by the standard). I still don't get it, if the program orginated
as a SD program watch it that way through the appropriate output on the STB
or switch the component to 480i/p. You do have an option, I have both the
SD & HD version of the stations on my cable system. When its says on the
scroll in bottom before the show, "Shown in HDTV" I switch the station, when
its not in HDTV I keep the SDTV station. Finally, switchable STBs give you
the selection.

The trouble with espn is that they don't send it to me sd. It's
analog and comes in ****ty.
Thumper
Also stop blaming the content providers, they send HD when its HD and SD
when its SD. What you need to do is find a STB that is selectable

through
the components (480i, 480p, etc) and that can do zoom and fill. I would
bet to guess that you are using an SA3100HD from Comcast.


All the providers except whyy are sending all the SDTV DTV content as HDTV

content.
ABC and NBC are maintaining the 4:3 ratio but sending it at the HDTV 1080i

resolution
which is supposed to be reserved for 16:9 content. Thus the image is 4:3

inside a 16:9.
This makes the image a 4:3 inside a 16:9 inside a 4:3 on a 4:3 DTV. ESPN's

DTV channel
seems to be stretching and distorting the 4:3 SDTV DTV content to fit a

16:9 window.
Many people (including the reps at comcast) don't seem to know you can buy

digital
cable boxes. They haven't seemed to apear in the market much and its an

added expense.
Also support for setting up an owned digital cable box is discourged.
I assume zooming would also degrade quality of an already SDTV DTV image.

If the SDTV
content is simply sent as SDTV DTV things are much more simple.


Like I said watch SDTV station when the original content isn't in HD. Watch
the HD station when the content is HDTV. Your problem is the fact that not
all content is HD, when it isn't its just upconverted by the STB not the
provider. At ESPN they upconvert at the source for their HD station. You
need to chill out and let this stuff mature. You might get more flexibility
in your HDTV viewing habits by going to D* and OTA, or you could upgrade to
a 16:9 TV.

But quick blaming Comcast, they (excepts for CSN) don't originate much
content and don't control what programs are HD and what are SD. They just
pass the signal along to the STB -- which if it is older will just force
everything out at 1080i @ 16:9. Just hope you get a newer STB to give you
more flexibility.





Lastly stop asking the same question and go read the FAQs from your cable
provide, STB provider or one of the sites dedicated to these topics.


Sorry but the issues I'm bringing up aren't covered by the cable provider

or the hardware.
The literature explains how to modify the the content but assumes that the

content is
sent in the appropriate DTV format in order to be able to modify it to get

proper results.

Please by no means take any offense by my attemt to provide insight.
I believe everthing I said in contradiction to the replied post is

accurate.




  #4  
Old August 5th 03, 12:05 AM
Thumper
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:37:40 -0700, "eNo" wrote:

I think someone is talking past someone...

"ctsooner" wrote in message
gy.com...

netguy wrote in message
m...
Please don't take any of my post with a harsh tone. I don't want to

attack
anyone I just wan't
to see if I can confirm my ideas.

First off wow! -- Now for your post ... I will assume that you are

using
a
4:3 HDTV. Also your STB does a force 1080i @ 16:9 for your component
output? See on a 4:3 HDTV programs that are orginal HD content will

fill
the screen except for top/bottom, if your TV does a fill it will

scretch
to
fill the screen. 16:9 TVs should be filled.

Yes, I couldn't agree more with every word you said. I see no reason to

distort the HD
image to fill a 4:3 television.


HDTV by definition is @ 16:9. -- If it is a HDTV it is always assumed to
be broadcast this way.


But... if it shows up as 4:3 inside a 16:9 the source material _isn't_ HDTV,
so why broadcast it that way? I believe that the objection the original post
highlights: don't broadcast SDTV as HDTV; pump it out as SDTV. Again, HDTV
downgraded to something else isn't what the OP is asking for.

-- Your STB is just doing wha the spec says -- output
this way regardless of what the source material is. Its the standard.


But the STB _isn't_ the issue; the broadcast is--it shouldn't be formatted
as HDTV if it isn't HDTV at the source.

Of course it should. We are in a transition period. I'm sure that it
is much more economical to send it on as 1080i. Why duplicate what
they are already sending in SD or analog on another channel?
Thumper
Why
should they send one stream for 4:3 users and one for 16:9 users? (Which
they do by the way through multi-casting)


So when you say "they", do you mean the STB or the broadcaster? See the
confusion? Why can't 4:3 be broadcast as 4:3, 16:9 be broadcast as 16:9, and
let the STB sort it out? STB's can auto-detect whether a particular
broadcast is 16:9 or not, right? Example: The local DTV NBC chanel
broadcasts Friends in glorious 16:9, followed by Scrubs in dismal 4:3; the
STB auto-detects and sends the TV the signal that best fills the screen.


  #5  
Old August 5th 03, 12:06 AM
Thumper
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Mon, 4 Aug 2003 14:37:40 -0700, "eNo" wrote:

I think someone is talking past someone...

"ctsooner" wrote in message
gy.com...

netguy wrote in message
m...
Please don't take any of my post with a harsh tone. I don't want to

attack
anyone I just wan't
to see if I can confirm my ideas.

First off wow! -- Now for your post ... I will assume that you are

using
a
4:3 HDTV. Also your STB does a force 1080i @ 16:9 for your component
output? See on a 4:3 HDTV programs that are orginal HD content will

fill
the screen except for top/bottom, if your TV does a fill it will

scretch
to
fill the screen. 16:9 TVs should be filled.

Yes, I couldn't agree more with every word you said. I see no reason to

distort the HD
image to fill a 4:3 television.


HDTV by definition is @ 16:9. -- If it is a HDTV it is always assumed to
be broadcast this way.


But... if it shows up as 4:3 inside a 16:9 the source material _isn't_ HDTV,
so why broadcast it that way? I believe that the objection the original post
highlights: don't broadcast SDTV as HDTV; pump it out as SDTV. Again, HDTV
downgraded to something else isn't what the OP is asking for.

-- Your STB is just doing wha the spec says -- output
this way regardless of what the source material is. Its the standard.


But the STB _isn't_ the issue; the broadcast is--it shouldn't be formatted
as HDTV if it isn't HDTV at the source.

Why
should they send one stream for 4:3 users and one for 16:9 users? (Which
they do by the way through multi-casting)


So when you say "they", do you mean the STB or the broadcaster? See the
confusion? Why can't 4:3 be broadcast as 4:3, 16:9 be broadcast as 16:9, and
let the STB sort it out?

It is.
Thumper
STB's can auto-detect whether a particular
broadcast is 16:9 or not, right? Example: The local DTV NBC chanel
broadcasts Friends in glorious 16:9, followed by Scrubs in dismal 4:3; the
STB auto-detects and sends the TV the signal that best fills the screen.



  #6  
Old August 5th 03, 01:35 PM
ctsooner
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Thumper" wrote in message
...
On Mon, 04 Aug 2003 14:39:45 GMT, "ctsooner"
wrote:


netguy wrote in message
om...
Please don't take any of my post with a harsh tone. I don't want to

attack
anyone I just wan't
to see if I can confirm my ideas.

First off wow! -- Now for your post ... I will assume that you are

using
a
4:3 HDTV. Also your STB does a force 1080i @ 16:9 for your component
output? See on a 4:3 HDTV programs that are orginal HD content will

fill
the screen except for top/bottom, if your TV does a fill it will

scretch
to
fill the screen. 16:9 TVs should be filled.

Yes, I couldn't agree more with every word you said. I see no reason to

distort the HD
image to fill a 4:3 television.


HDTV by definition is @ 16:9. -- If it is a HDTV it is always assumed

to
be broadcast this way -- Your STB is just doing wha the spec says --

output
this way regardless of what the source material is. Its the standard.

Why
should they send one stream for 4:3 users and one for 16:9 users? (Which
they do by the way through multi-casting)

As for 4:3 original SD content,
this will always happen, its a 4:3 picture sent out a component output

it
will have black bars top/bottom right/left ... Well what to do?

With all respect, this isn't true at all.
The component output can send at least 480i/480p/720p/1080i.
The resolution for SDTV is 480p/480i and as long as the rule is

followed
there
aren't any problems. Its much simpler to send the programs at the

correct
resolution versus
leaving the burdon upon the consumer to buy extra hardware and

re-adjust
the settings for
each channel. If the user want's to distort the 4:3 image into a 16:9

ratio then that should
be up to the user.


Other than FOX's "Enhanced TV" which is 480P there I don't know of any

other
programs running at 480P. Disney(ABC) has decided to run @ 720P OTA and

for
ESPN on cable, but most cable providers (not sure about D* or E*) convert
this 1080i anyway. So right now you have a two options. SDTV at 480i or
HDTV at 1080i. And again I say HDTV content will have 16:9 aspect ratio
(this is by the standard). I still don't get it, if the program

orginated
as a SD program watch it that way through the appropriate output on the

STB
or switch the component to 480i/p. You do have an option, I have both

the
SD & HD version of the stations on my cable system. When its says on the
scroll in bottom before the show, "Shown in HDTV" I switch the station,

when
its not in HDTV I keep the SDTV station. Finally, switchable STBs give

you
the selection.


The trouble with espn is that they don't send it to me sd. It's
analog and comes in ****ty.
Thumper


Thumper

I think you are mistaken, EPSN is Standard Definition TV .... In all its
analog glory.. Which is really too bad since ESPN recently completed a
conversion to a completely digital studio.



Also stop blaming the content providers, they send HD when its HD and

SD
when its SD. What you need to do is find a STB that is selectable

through
the components (480i, 480p, etc) and that can do zoom and fill. I

would
bet to guess that you are using an SA3100HD from Comcast.

All the providers except whyy are sending all the SDTV DTV content as

HDTV
content.
ABC and NBC are maintaining the 4:3 ratio but sending it at the HDTV

1080i
resolution
which is supposed to be reserved for 16:9 content. Thus the image is

4:3
inside a 16:9.
This makes the image a 4:3 inside a 16:9 inside a 4:3 on a 4:3 DTV.

ESPN's
DTV channel
seems to be stretching and distorting the 4:3 SDTV DTV content to fit a

16:9 window.
Many people (including the reps at comcast) don't seem to know you can

buy
digital
cable boxes. They haven't seemed to apear in the market much and its an

added expense.
Also support for setting up an owned digital cable box is discourged.
I assume zooming would also degrade quality of an already SDTV DTV

image.
If the SDTV
content is simply sent as SDTV DTV things are much more simple.


Like I said watch SDTV station when the original content isn't in HD.

Watch
the HD station when the content is HDTV. Your problem is the fact that

not
all content is HD, when it isn't its just upconverted by the STB not the
provider. At ESPN they upconvert at the source for their HD station. You
need to chill out and let this stuff mature. You might get more

flexibility
in your HDTV viewing habits by going to D* and OTA, or you could upgrade

to
a 16:9 TV.

But quick blaming Comcast, they (excepts for CSN) don't originate much
content and don't control what programs are HD and what are SD. They

just
pass the signal along to the STB -- which if it is older will just force
everything out at 1080i @ 16:9. Just hope you get a newer STB to give

you
more flexibility.





Lastly stop asking the same question and go read the FAQs from your

cable
provide, STB provider or one of the sites dedicated to these topics.

Sorry but the issues I'm bringing up aren't covered by the cable

provider
or the hardware.
The literature explains how to modify the the content but assumes that

the
content is
sent in the appropriate DTV format in order to be able to modify it to

get
proper results.

Please by no means take any offense by my attemt to provide insight.
I believe everthing I said in contradiction to the replied post is

accurate.






  #7  
Old August 5th 03, 07:05 PM
Stephen Tu
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default

On Tue, 5 Aug 2003 07:17:37 -0700, in article
, "eNo"
wrote:


Now I understand you a little better. Either I missed it or it wasn't clear,
but I thought there were two transmissions, one analog and one digital, the
latter showing HD content when and *only* when the program is HD. This seems


channels. I didn't realize that some stations were transmitting
(multi-casting) 3 channels, one analog, one (S)DTV and one (H)DTV.


Each station has only 2 channels allocated to it, one analog, one
digital (eventually, when analog transmission is terminated in the US,
they will have to return one of the channels to the public which the
government will auction off.)

The analog channel transmits a single NTSC program all the time. The
digital channel can carry anywhere from 1 to ~4 different programs, a
mixture of HD & SD, constrained by max bitrate of a little over
19 Mbit/sec. Could be 1 HD, 1HD + 1 SD, 1-4 SD, etc.

When they don't have HD to show on the digital channel, they still want
to show something, and SD programming is what they have available.
There are a couple reasons they upconvert it to HD rather than sending
4:3 SD - the main one is that a lot of the equipment is in its infancy
and not very well automated. Often they have to do something manually
to switch between HD transmission & SD transmission, & they claim it's
easier to just upconvert the SD so they can just send HD all the time.

The other is that their expensive equipment is going to do a better job
of upconversion than consumer equipment.

Sinceit's up to me to tune in to the right channel, where is there a listing
distinguishing SDTV vs. HDTV channels?


There aren't separate SD/HD channels per station. Your STB should tell
you what a digital station is transmitting. If it says "1080i" or
"720p", but it's pillarboxed with side bars, then it's an upconvert.
True HD will be 16:9.
--
Stephen Tu

  #8  
Old August 6th 03, 01:45 PM
ctsooner
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"Thumper" wrote in message
...
On Tue, 05 Aug 2003 12:35:48 GMT, "ctsooner"
wrote:

Thumper

I think you are mistaken, EPSN is Standard Definition TV .... In all its
analog glory.. Which is really too bad since ESPN recently completed a
conversion to a completely digital studio.


ESPN comes to me on channel 49. My understanding is that the first 99
channels are analog on my system. Channels 201 and up are SD on my
system and the 800's are HD. ESPNHD is on 849. An HD channel.
Thumper

You see here is where we get into symantics --.SDTV has a range resolutions
below those of HDTV and no defined aspect ratio. --so our lovely cable
companies take a Digital Feed from ESPN and convert it to analog. It is
SDTV (just not digital). Maybe soon enough we get digital only on cable,
until then I guess our only digital only optionis OTA-DT stations and
dishes?


  #9  
Old August 6th 03, 01:45 PM
ctsooner
external usenet poster
 
Posts: n/a
Default


"eNo" wrote in message
...
snip
Now I understand you a little better. Either I missed it or it wasn't

clear,
but I thought there were two transmissions, one analog and one digital,

the
latter showing HD content when and *only* when the program is HD. This

seems
to be the implication from such sites as
http://www.nab.org/Newsroom/Issues/d...TVstations.asp, which list

an
analog channel and its DTV counterpart, for a grand-total of 2 (not 3)
channels. I didn't realize that some stations were transmitting
(multi-casting) 3 channels, one analog, one (S)DTV and one (H)DTV. Since
it's up to me to tune in to the right channel, where is there a listing
distinguishing SDTV vs. HDTV channels?

--
eNo
"Why am I here?"


A good place to start is http://www.current.org/dtv/ for example for me in
CT WTNH broadcasts an analog signal on Channel 8 -- Its DTV allocation is 10
with three sub channells 10.1, 10.2, 10.3 --10.1 is an upconverted pass
thru of their standard fare on Channel 8 and when its HD native a pass
thru -- .2 and .3 are usually radar or sports ticker. Other OTA stations
just pass through the normal fair, whether or not its SD or HD. My local
PBS multicast PBSKids and PBSNOW


 




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