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SOT: Have I got no news for you



 
 
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  #1  
Old June 12th 19, 01:19 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Java Jive[_3_]
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Posts: 1,864
Default SOT: Have I got no news for you

On 12/06/2019 08:38, Jeff Gaines wrote:
On 11/06/2019 in message Java Jive wrote:

if I knew what I was voting for, how can there have been?


If you thought you were voting for anything more than a common market
then you didn't know what you were voting for.


A classic case of a Brex****ter calling white 'black' and black 'white'
- you cannot really expect anyone to believe the above when throughout
the rest of this subthread you're whole complaint is that *you* didn't
know what you were voting for.


  #2  
Old June 12th 19, 02:15 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Jeff Gaines
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Posts: 188
Default SOT: Have I got no news for you

On 12/06/2019 in message Java Jive wrote:

On 12/06/2019 08:38, Jeff Gaines wrote:
On 11/06/2019 in message Java Jive wrote:

if I knew what I was voting for, how can there have been?


If you thought you were voting for anything more than a common market
then you didn't know what you were voting for.


A classic case of a Brex****ter calling white 'black' and black 'white' -
you cannot really expect anyone to believe the above when throughout the
rest of this subthread you're whole complaint is that you didn't know what
you were voting for.


I was voting for the EEC - a common market, it's you who seems confused.

--
Jeff Gaines Wiltshire UK
That's an amazing invention but who would ever want to use one of them?
(President Hayes speaking to Alexander Graham Bell on the invention of the
telephone)
  #3  
Old June 12th 19, 11:21 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Java Jive[_3_]
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Posts: 1,864
Default SOT: Have I got no news for you

On 12/06/2019 14:15, Jeff Gaines wrote:
On 12/06/2019 in message Java Jive wrote:

On 12/06/2019 08:38, Jeff Gaines wrote:
On 11/06/2019 in message Java Jive wrote:

if I knew what I was voting for, how can there have been?

If you thought you were voting for anything more than a common market
then you didn't know what you were voting for.


A classic case of a Brex****ter calling white 'black' and black
'white' - you cannot really expect anyone to believe the above when
throughout the rest of this subthread you're whole complaint is that
you didn't know what you were voting for.


I was voting for the EEC - a common market, it's you who seems confused.


Again, see this link, everyone else seems to have discussed the
sovereignty issue except, surprise, surprise, the Brex****ters here

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/opinion/...new-what-we-w/

So if you were only voting for the EEC, it's definitely you who were
confused.
  #4  
Old June 13th 19, 08:42 AM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Jeff Gaines
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Posts: 188
Default SOT: Have I got no news for you

On 12/06/2019 in message Java Jive wrote:

So if you were only voting for the EEC, it's definitely you who were
confused.


No, I had clearly been told it was a common market..

--
Jeff Gaines Wiltshire UK
All those who believe in psychokinesis raise my hand.
  #5  
Old June 13th 19, 02:13 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Alex[_4_]
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Posts: 17
Default SOT: Have I got no news for you


"Jeff Gaines" wrote in message
...
On 12/06/2019 in message Java Jive
wrote:

So if you were only voting for the EEC, it's definitely you who were
confused.


No, I had clearly been told it was a common market..


fwiw here's a 1975 interview with Mrs Thatcher in which the issue of
ultimate federalisation is discussed (albeit in the usual long-winded
and cryptic language that politicians and interviewers are trained to
use) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zT3rx4RqhOU

She is asked about federalisation at 7m50s and to my mind she fails to
acknowledge the potential for such a scenario, instead putting a less
sinister spin on the matter, using the term "closer and closer
co-operation" instead.

Earlier at 6m36s she gives a version of what I call the absurd
"because of what the Nazis did" justification for joining.

Shows how little has changed in all that time, and how the same forces
are still in control today.


  #6  
Old Yesterday, 08:21 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Java Jive[_3_]
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Posts: 1,864
Default SOT: Have I got no news for you

On 13/06/2019 08:42, Jeff Gaines wrote:
On 12/06/2019 in message Java Jive wrote:

So if you were only voting for the EEC, it's definitely you who were
confused.


No, I had clearly been told it was a common market.


The Hansard records have already revealed the widespread concerns over
'sovereignty', and now the government leaflet has been shown to set out
these issues clearly. You are wrong.




  #7  
Old Yesterday, 08:56 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Java Jive[_3_]
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Posts: 1,864
Default SOT: Have I got no news for you

On 13/06/2019 14:13, Alex wrote:

"Jeff Gaines" wrote in message
...

On 12/06/2019 in message Java Jive
wrote:

So if you were only voting for the EEC, it's definitely you who were
confused.


No, I had clearly been told it was a common market..


fwiw here's a 1975 interview with Mrs Thatcher in which the issue of
ultimate federalisation is discussed (albeit in the usual long-winded
and cryptic language that politicians and interviewers are trained to
use) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zT3rx4RqhOU


Interesting, but, except that it shows again that Jeff et alia are wrong
and that 'federalisation' or equivalent *was* a public issue at the time
and *was* being widely discussed, it doesn't actually change much.

She is asked about federalisation at 7m50s and to my mind she fails to
acknowledge the potential for such a scenario, instead putting a less
sinister spin on the matter, using the term "closer and closer
co-operation" instead.


Like 'sovereignty', 'federalisation' is a word with emotional baggage
that will mean different things to different people, and also at that
stage it was only clear that member states intended to increase the
amount of political cooperation and integration, the actual form that
this would eventually take wasn't then at all clear, so probably she
used the ambiguous phrase that she did, "closer and closer
co-operation", because it was the best way of saying something positive
in favour of this process that couldn't actually turn out to be negated
by events.

Earlier at 6m36s she gives a version of what I call the absurd
"because of what the Nazis did" justification for joining.

Shows how little has changed in all that time, and how the same forces
are still in control today.


You keep mentioning this on seemingly an obsessional basis not shared by
anyone else, are you a Holocaust denier? If not, what is so wrong about
reminding ourselves about the worst that human beings can be? It's not
as though the Holocaust was a one-off never to be repeated aberration -
since then we've had Ruanda and the former Yugoslavia, to name but two.
  #8  
Old Today, 02:05 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Alex[_4_]
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Posts: 17
Default SOT: Have I got no news for you


"Java Jive" wrote in message
...
On 13/06/2019 14:13, Alex wrote:

"Jeff Gaines" wrote in message
...

On 12/06/2019 in message Java Jive
wrote:

So if you were only voting for the EEC, it's definitely you who
were
confused.

No, I had clearly been told it was a common market..


fwiw here's a 1975 interview with Mrs Thatcher in which the issue
of
ultimate federalisation is discussed (albeit in the usual
long-winded
and cryptic language that politicians and interviewers are trained
to
use) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zT3rx4RqhOU


Interesting, but, except that it shows again that Jeff et alia are
wrong and that 'federalisation' or equivalent *was* a public issue
at the time and *was* being widely discussed, it doesn't actually
change much.


I wouldn't necessarily say "widely discussed". It's impossible to
recreate the overall 'media experience' of the time just by watching
select clips on youtube. I wasn't born in 1975, but everyone I've ever
heard speak on the matter has stated that they thought they were
voting simply to join an economic community.

The federalisation issue was quite skillfully dealt with in that clip,
which is significant in itself.
If you listen carefully, the interviewer even offers Thatcher an olive
branch of sorts, by appending the question with "or do you regard our
presence in the community as a necessary intervention to stop that
[federalisation] from happening?", so she is effectively being invited
to tell the public "Vote to be in the EEC if you DON'T want a federal
European superstate!". This is a typical trick in mainstream media -
the presenters often share the same agenda as the establishment
politicians and assist them in placing a positive spin on things, to
bring false reassurance to the public. I'm surprised she didn't pick
up on it, but she does a good job of creating some spin of her own.


She is asked about federalisation at 7m50s and to my mind she fails
to
acknowledge the potential for such a scenario, instead putting a
less
sinister spin on the matter, using the term "closer and closer
co-operation" instead.


Like 'sovereignty', 'federalisation' is a word with emotional
baggage that will mean different things to different people, and
also at that stage it was only clear that member states intended to
increase the amount of political cooperation and integration, the
actual form that this would eventually take wasn't then at all
clear,


Surely this contradicts the argument you've been trying to make all
along, which is that - you claim - not only was the plan for eventual
federalisation already in place at the time, but the electorate was
well-aware of this plan when they voted in 1975.


Earlier at 6m36s she gives a version of what I call the absurd
"because of what the Nazis did" justification for joining.

Shows how little has changed in all that time, and how the same
forces
are still in control today.


You keep mentioning this on seemingly an obsessional basis not
shared by anyone else, are you a Holocaust denier? If not, what is
so wrong about reminding ourselves about the worst that human beings
can be? It's not as though the Holocaust was a one-off never to be
repeated aberration - since then we've had Ruanda and the former
Yugoslavia, to name but two.


Ironic that you should call me obsessive, given the amount of
fanatically pro-EU posts you have made in this thread, and with lots
of repetition of your own.

As stated previously, it's absurd to imply that any pursuit of
national independence would inevitibly lead to war and atrocities, and
to casually cite the two world wars of the 20th century as
justification for such a claim, yet this seems to be a common
'remainer' tactic. It's a fairly cynical attempt to use fear as a
means to control people.

Your 'holocaust denier' question was uncalled for.


  #9  
Old Today, 03:34 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Java Jive[_3_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 1,864
Default SOT: Have I got no news for you

On 15/06/2019 14:05, Alex wrote:

Like 'sovereignty', 'federalisation' is a word with emotional
baggage that will mean different things to different people, and
also at that stage it was only clear that member states intended to
increase the amount of political cooperation and integration, the
actual form that this would eventually take wasn't then at all
clear,


Surely this contradicts the argument you've been trying to make all
along, which is that - you claim - not only was the plan for eventual
federalisation already in place at the time, but the electorate was
well-aware of this plan when they voted in 1975.


The electorate was well aware of future intentions, but little, though I
believe some, actual planning had been done at the time, so there was
nothing concrete to discuss, only intent.

Earlier at 6m36s she gives a version of what I call the absurd
"because of what the Nazis did" justification for joining.

Shows how little has changed in all that time, and how the same
forces
are still in control today.


You keep mentioning this on seemingly an obsessional basis not
shared by anyone else, are you a Holocaust denier? If not, what is
so wrong about reminding ourselves about the worst that human beings
can be? It's not as though the Holocaust was a one-off never to be
repeated aberration - since then we've had Ruanda and the former
Yugoslavia, to name but two.


Ironic that you should call me obsessive, given the amount of
fanatically pro-EU posts you have made in this thread, and with lots
of repetition of your own.


I've been repeating facts in the interests of demonstrating the truth,
not barely if at all relevant equivocal allegations referencing the Nazis.

As stated previously, it's absurd to imply that any pursuit of
national independence would inevitibly lead to war and atrocities, and
to casually cite the two world wars of the 20th century as
justification for such a claim, yet this seems to be a common
'remainer' tactic. It's a fairly cynical attempt to use fear as a
means to control people.

Your 'holocaust denier' question was uncalled for.


I note that you didn't answer it, so what is your reason for constantly
referencing the Nazis?
  #10  
Old Today, 04:28 PM posted to uk.tech.digital-tv
Alex[_4_]
external usenet poster
 
Posts: 17
Default SOT: Have I got no news for you


"Java Jive" wrote in message
...
On 15/06/2019 14:05, Alex wrote:



The electorate was well aware of future intentions, but little,
though I believe some, actual planning had been done at the time, so
there was nothing concrete to discuss, only intent.


Do you have any evidence to demonstrate that the electorate was well
aware of future intentions, beyond personal anecdotes?

There well may have been documents in existence laying out the plans,
and occasional cryptic hints at it in the media (such as the example
I've already highlighted) but there wasn't any internet at the time -
how was the man on the street supposed to access the true, unfiltered
information?



Ironic that you should call me obsessive, given the amount of
fanatically pro-EU posts you have made in this thread, and with
lots
of repetition of your own.


I've been repeating facts in the interests of demonstrating the
truth,


Highly debatable.

not barely if at all relevant equivocal allegations referencing the
Nazis.


My point, which is that remainers keep using it as a fallacious
argument, is both relevant and unequivocal.


I note that you didn't answer it, so what is your reason for
constantly referencing the Nazis?


That's a loaded question - there are no "constant references to the
Nazis" from me.


 




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